# Do you carry Fins (flippers)?



## garyp (May 30, 2008)

Just read a post stating that a fellow yakker carries Fins in case he needs to ditch his yak and swim to shore.

Curious as to how many others do this.


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## ausbass (Feb 15, 2007)

I read this too and thought it was a mighty good idea. Especially for offshore users, because no matter how competent a swimmer you are fins are a great deal of help.

Once I get some new surf fins (bodyboarding) I'll be carrying them when I travel offshore in times I wont be carrying my spearfishing ones (a bit too big for carrying for emergency use at 80cm long!) when I go spearing.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

i did say no , but am actually thinking it may not be a real bad idea although it would take a lot to make me leave the kayak , but if i put them on after a capsize they may just give me the boost that i no longer have without them to get back on , not a bad idea actually , i will definately give it some thought .


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## GoneFishn (May 17, 2007)

They would also aid in re-entry to the kayak. They would give you that bit extra boost to get you in.


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## grinner (May 15, 2008)

did i read that the chap that was kayaking from australia to NZ and perished left a diary which indicated after capsizes he was so weak it was taking him over an hour to get back into his kayak and they think eventually he was just too weak to do it. may have saved his life,


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## Barrabundy (Sep 29, 2008)

I figure if I fall out and get seperated (I CAN get back in, I've tried it) I don't think flippers are going to make much difference given my long distance swimming abilities (or lack there-of)


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## Couta101 (May 22, 2009)

Just a thought... you are all saying that carring fins would be a good idea if you fall out of the yak....to aid in getting back on board or to swim to shore.
My thing is this... how would you get to those fins if you are seperated from your yak???? :shock: Further to that where would you store said fins so that they are easliy accessable if you are in the water and want to put them on???? :shock: :shock: And lastly if you store them in the yak, either in the hatch or front or rear hold wells and you can reach them easily, would it not then be easy to get back on board??? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Thats just my logic, thought I might just share it! ;-)


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## Big D (Apr 28, 2007)

I dont' want to do anything in SA waters that makes me look more like a seal :?


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

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QlpoOTFBWSZTWTlSfKQAAAxXgAAQQAUFIVAAP+3foCAASIp6m1PU0GniTTQxNCKeQmm0jR6Ammmhw0QOzW45UUKyQZo9YswsIRrbWUz6dgX1zXwrPAjOg2EvBxnOqNBYgtCcBF9gNlI+Cj/F3JFOFCQOVJ8pAA==


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

No I dont - it would take a major stuff up to make me want to abandon ship. I do however carry VHF radio and wear a PFD so I'm hoping that if the poo does hit the fan and I find myself in mthe water way offshore with a sunken boat then I'll be able to tread water and wait it out till help arrives. If I'm within a km or 2 of shore then I'll casually swim in, aided by the flotation of my pfd.

What i do need to get is a spare 2 piece paddle which i can carry in the hull (although reds surf gloves are also a good idea as an emergency paddle)


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## paulo (Nov 1, 2007)

Nope.. but I do carry a pair of swimming goggles in case I have to dive for anything expensive I accidentally drop over board.


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

if i lost my yak and all my fishing gear, i'm not sure i'd want to make it back to shore 

just joking wifey


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## wigg (Jan 6, 2007)

yep I do

Cheers

Wigg


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

If you are worried about having to swim back to shore then you should reconsider your decision to take your yak offshore. 
My advice is learn to paddle, brace and self rescue and buy a yak that is suitable for offshore use, small watertight hatches that wont swamp with water, foam bulkheads in case you tip while reaching into a hatch or have a shark bite a hole in your yak, a fast tracking hull to make the long journey quicker. Carry a spare paddle in case you somehow lose or break your main leashed paddle. Wear a pfd and have your essentials attached to it, knife, whistle, light, mirror, communications so you can call for help if you for some reason cant paddle back to shore. 
Why leave a nice big yak, more visable in a search, better able to keep you dry and warm to don a pair of fins and become shark bait?
Carry a mask, snorkel and fins if you want to swim around the reef and look at fishies and pretty corals.


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## grinner (May 15, 2008)

paulo said:


> Nope.. but I do carry a pair of swimming goggles in case I have to dive for anything expensive I accidentally drop over board.


paulo, thats a great idea and im going to do that as trying to find stuff by feel is spooky


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

QlpoOTFBWSZTWT6g5hkAABVbgAAQUKWAChQKP+/+ICAAiCJpPUxGmgxMRp6g0Gqn4KnhpNJ6QYgep6QnJBfnuo7nYT6Uqh8liTH1Ag+nai8sKydEHxumN6OxIywj4DYRbVFT++YyBw0JBI+WV3CCDdHXxJnc67E2ZhCjQLu8Tc2O03GXvemt7XcPQW0nOKnmwYwgGCVVgnA4/d4/xdyRThQkD6g5hkA=


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## ausbass (Feb 15, 2007)

kayaksportsmark said:


> If you are worried about having to swim back to shore then you should reconsider your decision to take your yak offshore.
> My advice is learn to paddle, brace and self rescue and buy a yak that is suitable for offshore use, small watertight hatches that wont swamp with water, foam bulkheads in case you tip while reaching into a hatch or have a shark bite a hole in your yak, a fast tracking hull to make the long journey quicker. Carry a spare paddle in case you somehow lose or break your main leashed paddle. Wear a pfd and have your essentials attached to it, knife, whistle, light, mirror, communications so you can call for help if you for some reason cant paddle back to shore.
> Why leave a nice big yak, more visable in a search, better able to keep you dry and warm to don a pair of fins and become shark bait???
> Carry a mask, snorkel and fins if you want to swim around the reef and look at fishies and pretty corals.


Mark, with your suggestions of selecting a kayak I can only see kayaks such as the Kazaki and Stealth hulls being suitable. They are required by SA law to have inbuilt flotation and often have small w/proof hatches. This would rule out most of the yaks that go offshore; like the Malibu's, Hobie's, Viking's etc. as they are for offshore use, without the owners having to fill up their craft with expanding/block foam, something I am considering doing once I get my hands on a few cans.

But seriously, would swimming for it really present you as a tasty meal for sharks? I mean comeon the chance of a hungry or inquisitive shark coming along while your going at it to get to shore is pretty slim. If I had to make the choice of swimming for it, I wouldnt be hesitant about sharks.

Also the use of fins for some of the larger yak fishers as added propulsion with re-entry is a good idea.


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

ausbass said:


> .
> 
> ....... expanding/block foam, something I am considering doing once I get my hands on a few cans....


Forget that idea, it would make a terrible mess and soaks up water. Better to get a big 80mm thick section of foam and cut it to shape of hull, then cut out the centre on an angle. The outer ring of foam can now be put in through the hatch and glued/sealed in place. Then insert the inner piece and glue/seal to the outer. Now you have a bulkhead.
As for your list of suitable offshore boats according to my criteria you can add the Catch 390 and upcoming Catch 420 to the list as they have bulkheads that will keep them afloat if half the boat were to be swamped.


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## ratfish (Oct 21, 2008)

I carry fins but generally only in the summer if i'm diving or if i've left them in my crate, not really there for emergency purposes. I guess if i lost my paddle it'd be some speedy kick propulsion but i've always carried a spare 2 piece - until i snapped my main. I can see the use of them but at the same time if it got that bad a lot of other things would have had to go wrong in the first place. I like the idea of paddle gloves as a quick option and easily stored on your pfd.


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## kritter67 (May 17, 2009)

I dont , but i should , just never thought about it :? , thanks  .. i will now 8) K---------


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## kritter67 (May 17, 2009)

Couta101 said:


> Just a thought... you are all saying that carring fins would be a good idea if you fall out of the yak....to aid in getting back on board or to swim to shore.
> My thing is this... how would you get to those fins if you are seperated from your yak???? :shock: Further to that where would you store said fins so that they are easliy accessable if you are in the water and want to put them on???? :shock: :shock: And lastly if you store them in the yak, either in the hatch or front or rear hold wells and you can reach them easily, would it not then be easy to get back on board??? :shock: :shock: :shock:
> 
> Thats just my logic, thought I might just share it! ;-)


I use the safety rope from somewhere on the forum ... a clip attached to cord coiled into 4 inch pvc tube with clip at the other end . one end attaches to yak the other to you . Look in safety i think it was there . This way if you fall out you dont become seperated from your yak , as for fin storage there has to be somewhere handy , to the back of your seat maybe , depends on the yak of course .K------------


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## yankatthebay (Dec 14, 2007)

I take a VHF and will call the coastal patrol if I have that sort of problem. There is no way I can swim more than a few hundred meters.


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## kritter67 (May 17, 2009)

yankatthebay said:


> I take a VHF and will call the coastal patrol if I have that sort of problem. There is no way I can swim more than a few hundred meters.


What sort of squid are you !!! :lol:


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## oldandbent (Feb 11, 2008)

Now that I have the room I will be carrying fins and a mask and snorkle. Mandy equipment at any time. ;-)


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## kritter67 (May 17, 2009)

oldandbent said:


> Now that I have the room I will be carrying fins and a mask and snorkle. Mandy equipment at any time. ;-)


Who's Mandy? :lol:


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## oldandbent (Feb 11, 2008)

Mandy should be handy and I would carry her for those special needs if I could. :twisted:

Be kind its late!!! :twisted:


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## ausbass (Feb 15, 2007)

kritter67 said:


> oldandbent said:
> 
> 
> > Now that I have the room I will be carrying fins and a mask and snorkle. Mandy equipment at any time. ;-)
> ...


Mandatory equipment


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## redracingski (Jan 29, 2008)

offshore always.

little cuttoff jobs...they dont take much room


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## blaggon (Jan 14, 2008)

kayaksportsmark said:


> If you are worried about having to swim back to shore then you should reconsider your decision to take your yak offshore.
> .
> Why leave a nice big yak, more visable in a search, better able to keep you dry and warm to don a pair of fins and become shark bait???
> .


if your worried about becoming shark bait then you should reconsider your decision to take your yak offshore :lol:
seriously the risk of this is so low i never think of it being an issue. i am comfortable in the ocean and would not be out there otherwise ;-)


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

blaggon said:


> kayaksportsmark said:
> 
> 
> > If you are worried about having to swim back to shore then you should reconsider your decision to take your yak offshore.
> ...


Why not comment on the whole point of the statement "Why leave a nice big yak, more visable in a search, better able to keep you dry and warm"...."to don a pair of fins and become sharkbait"
What are you expecting to do with your fins? Whats the tide and wind doing while you decided to go for a swim, what will the rescue chopper be looking out for when you dont return on time, how cold is the water you decided to swim in, where is the freshwater you need to drink..........? I am sure there are many more questions that should be asked and answered before you choose to leave your kayak.


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## worleybird (Aug 31, 2008)

I agree with the "not leaving your kayak" party. I cannot see many (if any) reasons to leave a yak and swim in. That's generally how people drown in the ocean, they leave their board or ski or kayak and swim. The only reason you might have to swim is if your yak sinks. As mentioned this can be remedied by bulk heads or airbags. airbags are easy to get from kayak shops, they're used by whitewater kayakers and sit in seakayakers for floatation after being swamped. They're more flexible than foam as they can be let down slightly or totall removed if you need more room and they take 30 secs to install.

I yak offshore often and feel comfortable with swimming a few kms to shore if needed but I find it hard to imagine me leaving my yak for any reason (unless of course i discovered it was haunted by the ghosts of all the fish i'd caught and they were out to get revenge :twisted: ). As mark said, It is a MAJOR decision to leave your yak. you don't want to find out that it's too far to swim once you're half way in. I would suggest unless your yak is on the ocean floor it's nearly always better to stay with it. If people know where you are and when you're supposed to be back it's better to stay with your boat and wait for rescue if you get into major trouble.

In saying this fins could still be a good idea as part of a survival kit if you find yourself having to tread water next to your swamped unstable kayak and/or swim it to shore or in that unlikely event that you HAVE to leave your kayak.

Stephen


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## Sunhobie (Jun 22, 2006)

Better flotation idea:
fill a couple of strong plastic bag with styrene foam balls (beanbag re-fill). Seal them up and push one into each end of your kayak. They will keep your kayak afloat, in all but a major catastrophe. Much easier to spot a floating kayak in a rescue situation than a bobbing head. If you put enough foam in, the kayak could still probably be paddled/pedalled even when full of water.


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## Barrabundy (Sep 29, 2008)

The main reason I bought a yellow kayak was for visibility. I figured if I didn't come home one day a bright yellow piece of plastic would be a bit more visible. So with that in mind staying with it would make sense. If you've ever had a play with those pool noodles you'd know that you wouldn't have to sacrifice too much space to get some flotation.

Pity my clothing isn't very bright, something I intend changing in the near future.


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## oldandbent (Feb 11, 2008)

I thought the question was do you carry fins not do you intend to abandon your kayak if you tip over :? :? :?

In the quest for sanity I ask the following questions in the form of example.

You have tipped over several hundred meters from shallow water. Could fins actually assist you to guide your kayak toward the shallow water or are you going to stay around and wait for rescue?

Lost you paddle and are contemplating swimming for it in a slight current. Might fins assist you to do that and more safely regain your yak after the recovery?

You lose something over board in 5 meters of clear water whilst at anchor and really want to recover it. Could the fins be of some assistance?

I am sure I could give many more scenarios. Just because someone carries fins does not mean they intend to swim the English Channel but my argument is that if they do they have a much better chance of doing so. Do I recommend swimming the English Channel; no.


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## MERRI (Jul 24, 2008)

I LIKE SUNHOBIES IDEA ABOUT FLOATATION IN YAK .NOT KEEN ON SWIMMING WITH TOOTHIES WITH FINS ON .


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## ProSurfFisho (Aug 20, 2009)

It's a good idea, but not exactly logical, what you could do I guess is tie them with some light line say 3lb to the side of your yak, with alot of spare line, so if the fact that yor yak is drifting faster than you can swim, then the flippers will float aiding you with a time-slot to go and pick them up quickly. And hopefully be able to swim back to your yak with the boost.

Heres what my uncle says about yakking:
Don't go out farther than you could possibly swim, With most average people can swim for 2-6km if need be.


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

oldandbent said:


> I thought the question was do you carry fins not do you intend to abandon your kayak if you tip over :? :? :? ..........


Here is the original post:


garyp said:


> Just read a post stating that a fellow yakker carries Fins in case he needs to ditch his yak and swim to shore.
> Curious as to how many others do this.


So for those who read the first post will understand that myself and some other kayakers would prefer not to don fins and leave the kayak to swim to shore.



oldandbent said:


> ....You have tipped over several hundred meters from shallow water. Could fins actually assist you to guide your kayak toward the shallow water or are you going to stay around and wait for rescue?


If you are fishing several hundred metres from shore and you have a sit on top kayak you should have the skills and fitness to reright the yak and climb back on, unaided. For those suggesting putting on your fins and then climbing back on, think again as it is not easy to put fins on in the water without the need to keep your gear together, what if you lose one fin while you struggle to put on the other? No offense to those who are not as fit, slim or flexible as they once were but if you cant climb back on your yak its a fair chance you would struggle to get the fins on.
If you have a sit in kayak with a spraydeck you should learn how to eskimo roll to get back upright. If you dont have a spraydeck you should stick to calm waterways to reduce the risk of capsize. You should also learn self recovery techniques in the event of capsize so you can reright your kayak and climb back in and bail the water out with a bailing container or bilgepump.



oldandbent said:


> Lost you paddle and are contemplating swimming for it in a slight current. Might fins assist you to do that and more safely regain your yak after the recovery?


You can always leash your paddle and carry a spare multi-piece paddle (or paddle gloves like Red. See above comment for second part of this question.



oldandbent said:


> You lose something over board in 5 meters of clear water whilst at anchor and really want to recover it. Could the fins be of some assistance?


You can reduce the risk of losing items overboard by using leashes for big items and lanyards for small items. If you did drop something over the side then yes, a dive mask would be of maximum benefit to see what you are looking for, of course fins would help, however this is not the question asked.


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## worleybird (Aug 31, 2008)

oldandbent,

I don't think others, and i am certainly not suggesting people should not take fins on their yak if they want. As i mentioned in my post, they could be useful in a few cases that you also mentioned. They could definitely be a help to rescue yourself AND kayak to shallow water.

The original post was talking about abandoning your kayak, which has pricked up the ears of several members as we would see that as a very unlikely and a possibly more dangerous option. We are not trying to dissuade people from carrying fins, they could be very handy in some situations. We are trying to dissuade people from thinking that ditching your yak is a likely or safe option and is possibly very dangerous and at least a serious decision to consider. 
Take fins in your yak, just use them to keep you WITH your kayak rather than swim AWAY from it. Unless it's on the ocean floor as I mentioned (Fins will also help you stay with your yak on the ocean floor as well if you want to though  ).

Stephen


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## oldandbent (Feb 11, 2008)

worleybird said:


> oldandbent,
> 
> I don't think others, and i am certainly not suggesting people should not take fins on their yak if they want. As i mentioned in my post, they could be useful in a few cases that you also mentioned. They could definitely be a help to rescue yourself AND kayak to shallow water.
> 
> ...


I agree that abandoning a kayak in most cases is not the way to go and thoroughly endorse that. Reality is however that in some circumstances staying with a kayak may not be the best option always. For instance holding onto a kayak being blown off shore may not be the smartest option. Nor may be staying holding onto a kayak in extremely cold conditions if you cannot get back into it and are reasonably close to shore.

I read the arguments about everything being leashed and being able to get back in. Again how many posts have we read about yakers loosing this or that overboard. There are not too many kayaks out there with everything leashed. Some are out there without even the basic equipment.

Also the one about having a marine radio (I do), great if it works, if you can find it and if it has not taken water. Great if you can get it through the tangle of leases.

I do not like the idea of perhaps one day being in the water, bobbing around trying to mount my kayak and being washed toward rocks or a surf break without all the options I can.

Comments have been made that fins may be too hard to to put on. If they are of the open heel variety I would suggest this is not the case.

As far as the swimming in fins and becoming shark bait is concerned I just want to point out that a multitude of divers, snorkelers, surfers, body boarders and swimmers flap around in the bays and oceans without any hassles from sharks and being on a board or holding onto a kayak is not going to ensure no shark attacks.

I choose to carry a knife on my PFD for cutting leashes or tangled lines, I choose to carry flairs, a marine radio and a mobile phone as well; all options. I also want to give myself the option of fins and a mask in case I need to use them Heaven forbid some stink boat ever cuts my kayak in half one night but should it happen I also want the option of being able to punt it toward shore while I wait for rescue should I still be capable rather than drifting uncontrolled toward the heads.


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## blaggon (Jan 14, 2008)

oldandbent.
you have made some very good points and i agree. there most certainly is some circumstances when it is a good idea to leave the kayak and make for shore..no one should argue that.. but i am sure someone wont be able to hold back :lol: 
putting fins on whilst in the water is also a very easy thing to do and especially so whilst wearing a pfd.


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## paddleparra (Apr 23, 2008)

I have mine in a dry bag exposed and secured to shock cord in rear well so easy access if I do need them and if I am really buggered getting in I can inflate the drybag and hook it ovet the paddle, this acts as a paddle float and gives me another support when getting back on the yak, again great in theory and only practiced once in Currimundi Lake.

Brian


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## Ozplanman (Jun 5, 2009)

Just my two bobs worth...assuming you could get to them from in the water and still couldn't get back into the yak this leaves you with having to tow the yak back whilst trying to push yourself through the water with a PFD on. Having trained as a rescue diver and having had to tow a fully kitted diver, my concern is that the resistance from a bulky PFD shouldn't be underestimated. They're designed to assist flotation, not for swimming. My concern is that you may be tempted to ditch the PFD to make for smoother going which would be a baaaad decision. If you are THAT tired you can't get back in without fins (actually I prefer flippers...mammals have flippers fish have fins and I'm a mammal!) you shouldn't be bl--dy well out there!

Here's hoping we don't find ourselves in such a situation!

Cheers!


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## oldandbent (Feb 11, 2008)

Ozplanman said:


> Just my two bobs worth...assuming you could get to them from in the water and still couldn't get back into the yak this leaves you with having to tow the yak back whilst trying to push yourself through the water with a PFD on. Having trained as a rescue diver and having had to tow a fully kitted diver, my concern is that the resistance from a bulky PFD shouldn't be underestimated. They're designed to assist flotation, not for swimming. My concern is that you may be tempted to ditch the PFD to make for smoother going which would be a baaaad decision. If you are THAT tired you can't get back in without fins (actually I prefer flippers...mammals have flippers fish have fins and I'm a mammal!) you shouldn't be bl--dy well out there!
> 
> Here's hoping we don't find ourselves in such a situation!
> 
> Cheers!


Me thinks the scenarios could go on and on. Great that you have some formal training and that you prefer flippers to fins. Fins are the term used in the navy and police and civilian rescue squads for foot assisted propulsion devices. What that has to do with the effectiveness of the device escapes me but having had fifteen 20 years as a professional dive instructor and seven years full time employment in a search and rescue squad I would like to make the following points:-

Divers and their rescuers do not ever ditch their floatation devices and do activate them as part of the recue procedure. The floatation devices do slow down tow and swim times but also assist in the rescue procedure and are therefore never ditched until the victim is landed. Whilst not designed for swimming they can and should be worn.

Wearing fins (flippers) will allow the swimmer to make more progress, for longer than someone wearing a PDF and swimming without them.

Leaning on or over a kayak that remains buoyant but cannot support weight and guiding it through foot propulsion can help in improving your position or even allow you to reach shallows or avoid danger. This ability will also improve if you wear fins (flippers) and allow you to move for longer in a particular direction.

Lastly a person who is suddenly immersed may swallow water or choke. This can drastically affect their ability to mount a kayak or perform other strength activity regardless of skill/fitness levels. Very cold water can also quickly and detrimentally affect a person's strength and coordination negating their ability to perform simple tasks. To blanket say that a person who cannot or did not remount a kayak should not have been out there is easily said but may overlook the obvious, injury etc.

Not meaning to attack your post but I again state my argument that having equipment can be better than not and one man's security blanket may be folly to another.


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## worleybird (Aug 31, 2008)

Ozplanman:


> actually I prefer flippers...mammals have flippers fish have fins and I'm a mammal!


Ironic that you're a diver as most dive shops/operators that i've been involved with fine you a beer every time you call them flippers!! Also most marine mammals that i can think of have fins (other than otters and polar bears)! :? There was a marine mammal CALLED flipper, but he too had fins!!

indiedog:


> a tether between you and it would be much better


A leash could be used for safety well offshore or in a lake or something but I have seen the carnage of leash use in the surf!! :shock: When SOT sea kayak tours were beginning leashes were tried as a way of keeping punters with their kayaks and stopping kayaks getting washed ashore when riding the surf. Kayaks have a LOT of momentum and can do a lot of damage when on a wave and attached to a body part :? As long as you take it off before coming through the surf it could work, but you should always be cautious of having any large object tethered to yourself when in the water as it's often considered a risky behaviour.

I think the results of this pole is pretty clear anyway, not many carry fins. many think it could be a good idea. I think there's a consensus that leaving your kayak would be a last resort but the point at which that decision would be reached depends on the person and the situation.

Stephen


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## Ozplanman (Jun 5, 2009)

worleybird said:


> Ozplanman:
> 
> 
> > actually I prefer flippers...mammals have flippers fish have fins and I'm a mammal!
> ...


Ha Ha, yes, I was fined quite a bit so I went along with them and called them fins for years but my scientific background got the better of me in the end! Just because someone way back made a decision to call 'em fins doesn't make me wrong though! Really, it doesn't make any difference and I was just "having a go"! Interestingly, its a funny situation, having also done a bit of Biology I'd argue that a flipper or a fin is an appendage designed to assist the direction of an organism through a viscous medium and consists of a range of different materials (if you exclude the use of fins to describe the bits on the tail of a Saturn V rocket!). In the case of mammals a flipper generally consists of a skeletal structure of articulated bone (not cartilage as in fish) surrounded by a range of tissue including muscle, connective tissues, blood vessels and dermal layers. In fish (which don't actually have bones but rather cartilage) fins are a completely different structure with no articulation and the cartilage provides rigidity controlled by musculature within the body. I'm sure this little aside could produce more arguments than its worth! Oh, by the way, Flipper was a mammal and had flippers!

Cheers!


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## Ozplanman (Jun 5, 2009)

oldandbent said:


> Ozplanman said:
> 
> 
> > Just my two bobs worth...assuming you could get to them from in the water and still couldn't get back into the yak this leaves you with having to tow the yak back whilst trying to push yourself through the water with a PFD on. Having trained as a rescue diver and having had to tow a fully kitted diver, my concern is that the resistance from a bulky PFD shouldn't be underestimated. They're designed to assist flotation, not for swimming. My concern is that you may be tempted to ditch the PFD to make for smoother going which would be a baaaad decision. If you are THAT tired you can't get back in without fins (actually I prefer flippers...mammals have flippers fish have fins and I'm a mammal!) you shouldn't be bl--dy well out there!
> ...


I'm a bit perplexed by this response. Pissing contests aside, it seems the only area in which you feel we have some slight difference of opinion is that you feel that an immersed kayaker could very quickly find themselves unable to remount a kayak and that flippers would be useful and that I have oversimplified the situation. On the surface of it on these points, you are indisputably correct. Yes, they could become injured or exhaust themselves in a very short time (especially if they were very out of shape). Yes I have oversimplified the situation. My intent in deliberately making a challenging comment however, was to make people think about the degree of fitness required to undertake this sort of strenuous activity. The comment was also designed to make people think about how tired they get and to try and keep something in reserve. I tried to stress the importance of the PFD. That's all.

Of course having flippers on will help in nearly every situation where someone goes into the water. I'm sure we could make a list a mile long of other safety items that, should we carry them, would probably sink the yak! I've personally thought about carrying a mask and flippers to get to the anchor if I need to, I'm sure there are a range of other valid uses!

Seriously, in relation to the topic, I agree with everything you've said. If you read my post carefully you'll note that I simply said removing flotation would be a very bad idea. I said that it would slow down progress and that this MIGHT give someone the idea that removing it would be a good idea - this would be bad. Only an idiot would disagree with you about the progress made with flippers whilst wearing a PFD as opposed to progress made without them and I certainly won't argue with you on that point!

Have you considered that having flippers may also engender a false sense of security or facilitate someone overextending themselves by attempting something they wouldn't without them? But I digress...

Yes, divers and rescuers don't ditch their flotation, point is we're talking about a range of people of varying abilities and training in the main here and not divers or rescuers who should have significant training in flotation and rescue techniques, on this basis I thought a warning about keeping a PFD on was in order.

I hope it is clear to everyone that we are both attempting to focus on safety here, glib comments and veiled criticisms aside.


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## worleybird (Aug 31, 2008)

Ozplanman:


> In the case of mammals a flipper generally consists of a skeletal structure of articulated bone (not cartilage as in fish) surrounded by a range of tissue including muscle, connective tissues, blood vessels and dermal layers. In fish (which don't actually have bones but rather cartilage) fins are a completely different structure with no articulation and the cartilage provides rigidity controlled by musculature within the body.


yes I'll agree with that distinction, but if you go by that definition we would wear fins! ;-) there is no articulation in the fins we wear and they are controlled by the musculature within our bodies (feet and legs). Flipper had pectoral flippers but he is propelled by his tail fin or fluke as they are not appendages and also has a dorsal fin!! ;-)

I know this is an off topic aside but I thought we should run it through it's course (all tongue in cheek of course-who cares what they're called!! :lol: )

Stephen


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## sayaka (Oct 10, 2008)

ill be bringin fins with me from now on, flipped the yak while sailing with no out riggers had to tow the kayak back to shore lucky i was wearing a pdf but fins would of made it a lot easier. will use velcro to secure to elastic behind seat. ps my fins float so the cant be lost. had to take sail of before i started towing the yak back as it works like a sea anchor lol
ps prevention is better than the cure.
rob


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

sayaka said:


> ill be bringin fins with me from now on, ......... will use velcro to secure to elastic behind seat. ........................


For those determined to take their fins or flippers with them as a safety device (fins or flippers, thongs or flip flops.. ) may I suggest if you use small swim fins like a body boarder uses, then strap them to your calves so they are with you. If you use bigger dive/snorkel fins try to secure them to the back of your PFD

Be smart dont discount all the good advice in this topic and information found elsewhere in the forum.

Have fun out there.
Mark


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## kritter67 (May 17, 2009)

I leash myself to my yak when anchored mainly because if i went over without it i would drift away from my yak in the current . I also tether myself if it is coppy , but unclip it when i get close to shore . As i said i "will" carry fins /flippers , [foot paddles thats what i will call mine ] :lol: from now on . Also a knife attached to my pfd will be utilised aswell ,K----------


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

kritter67 said:


> foot paddles thats what i will call mine


a rose by any other name will smell as sweet.


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## Rose (Jan 30, 2006)

xxxxxxxxxx


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## Ozplanman (Jun 5, 2009)

worleybird said:


> Ozplanman:
> 
> 
> > In the case of mammals a flipper generally consists of a skeletal structure of articulated bone (not cartilage as in fish) surrounded by a range of tissue including muscle, connective tissues, blood vessels and dermal layers. In fish (which don't actually have bones but rather cartilage) fins are a completely different structure with no articulation and the cartilage provides rigidity controlled by musculature within the body.
> ...


Ha Ha, yes why not... 

Now you're muddying the waters though!  So what you're saying is, if Flipper wore paddles (for want of a better word!) on his flippers they'd be called fins? Also, its not a tail fin, it is, as you so eloquently noted, a fluke which is a term reserved for cetaceans (eg. whales, dolphins & porpoises) to describe their tail - in much the same way as flipper is used to define their pectoral appendages as opposed to fins! 

I prefer to think that flappy things attached to a mammal should be called flippers...now I suppose the unkind could point out that Prince Charles has quite a nice set of flippers!!

Love a good pedantic argument!   (hope we're not annoying the natives too much!!)

- Oz.


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## worleybird (Aug 31, 2008)

> Love a good pedantic argument!   (hope we're not annoying the natives too much!!)


Hey Oz, 
only just realised you're from around here. I'd call this a good hearty conversation between fellow mid-coasters! sorry to anyone that didn't wanna go on this side track. I could also mentioned that flukes are technically fins, hence a new name was made to describe a cetacean's tale fin, or that there is no scientific classification called _cetacea_ anymore, they belong to _cetartiodactyla_ but I won't, for the sake of others, go into that. This is my last post on the topic i promise (or should that be 'off the topic' :? )

Stephen


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## Donutslayer (Jun 9, 2007)

this thread inspired me. I just went out and bought a snorkelling set. Nothing whatsoever to do with safety. More just a cool thing to have handy. 
Anyway, i asked the guy at the shop, a serious spearo, if it was fins or flippers. He told me to stop being a frigging tool and go fishing  Good advise i say.
Sean


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## Ozplanman (Jun 5, 2009)

worleybird said:


> > Love a good pedantic argument!   (hope we're not annoying the natives too much!!)
> 
> 
> Hey Oz,
> ...


Hey, no fair!  Throw in a grenade and call game over! Still we mid coasters know when enough is enough so I won't fight back! Apologies to the natives! Happy yakking! :lol:


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## Ozplanman (Jun 5, 2009)

Donutslayer said:


> this thread inspired me. I just went out and bought a snorkelling set. Nothing whatsoever to do with safety. More just a cool thing to have handy.
> Anyway, i asked the guy at the shop, a serious spearo, if it was fins or flippers. He told me to stop being a frigging tool and go fishing  Good advise i say.
> Sean


Good one! :lol: Remember tools are useful! You never know when you might need one!


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## oldandbent (Feb 11, 2008)

Ozplanman said:


> Donutslayer said:
> 
> 
> > this thread inspired me. I just went out and bought a snorkelling set. Nothing whatsoever to do with safety. More just a cool thing to have handy.
> ...


You blokes lost me for a while with the flipper/fins wars. :? :? But I do understand understand tools. They are great for conversations when there is no one else around. :twisted:


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## soggypilchard (Dec 1, 2008)

I was thinking about this, as am pretty proficient at swimming long distance with fins on (surfer, bodyboarder and bodysurfer)
BUT... i don't think its wise to leave a capsized craft to swim in.
Eddie Aikau died because he decided to swim for help rather than stay with the capsized craft and outrigger crew.
I partially sunk my kayak the other night.
the lessons learn t were
1. don't be stupid again and take a risk like the one that made me capsize
2. thank fk my kayak floats underwater. 
3. less gear is more. i have too much gear with me to weigh me down.
4. get a waterproof mobile phone and use it to tell people at home you will be late.
5. you cant bail out water from a sit in kayak while it is under water,let it float up and bail it out while swimming next to it.
6. don't panic, treat it just like you would surfing.


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