# Hobie PA12 Capsized



## Nbh00d

I came across this video today and think it is worthwhile to watch and learn.


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## Stealthfisha

Dude.....holy crapnuggets!


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## kayakone

Occulator said:


> I reckon it should be compulsory viewing for every single person who ever puts their bum into a kayak.


If only Paul.  Fancy every yak dealer showing that to customers _*before they buy*_. :shock:



Occulator said:


> That is without doubt the best bit of safety video footage I think I have ever seen on YouTube.


X 2 That guy (does anyone know him?) should be congratulated for his contribution to kayak safety.

trev


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## Alster99

Knogg is a Vyak regular. Here is the link to his story about it...

http://www.vyak.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13200


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## ArWeTherYet

Bugger! 
So what happened? He seem to of snagged then dropped his rod and when he turned to go back he was knocked off by a small choppy wave. 
Good work getting back on, those things must weigh a ton.


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## Marty75

Wonder how much water got in...

Pretty lucky I reckon.

I wonder whether the yakkers and boaties knew the weather forecast before going out or it was a freak storm that came out of nowhere...?

Freaky


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## Dodge

BigGee said:


> good decision to come over the back.


Gee,

Wazza [Seadog] did something similar on the dam one time after going bum up into the water from the Swing [smooth conditions but pilot error], and quite incredibly was only the week before spottymac at a GC drinks night had mentioned boarding that way.

So Waz sank the bow of the yak and straddled his 110kgs over it then worked his way to the back over the sounder, and 2 x adjustable rod holders, then at the seat was able to turn around and resume paddling and pick up his floating gear.

It was a camera opportunity missed on my part, and first saw him wet as a shag when he came alongside me 10 minutes later.


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## gbc

There is a sea state (not a bad one evidently) where flat bottoms and high COG begin to work against us - I think we just got a lesson in where that starts. Might upset a few, but those things should stay in calm, protected waters - they are not seaworthy.
Apart from being slower than flappy mirage drives, paddles are 'also' o.k. for performing braces, turning boats around (fishing tackle boxes back out of the drink) and other such mundane things. For me a paddle is part of what defines a kayak, and makes them so good at handling the ocean.


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## Scotlander

Agree about a paddle it's just instinctive to use it to brace if you feel you are 
about to capsize, good effort getting back in though and sorting himself out 
that didn't look like a pleasant few minutes.
Mal


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## Rhino

Occulator said:


> One of the things that amazed me was how difficult the PA is to roll. Ron (Fishnfun), who is no lightweight let me tell ya, proved it on our safety day. Admittedly he was in the bigger version PA, but it took him several attempts and a lot of brute force to flip it. It follows therefore that it is equally as hard (harder actually) to right.
> 
> And as everyone will tell you THE ONLY way to remount a PA is from the rear. End of story. ................


Occy, whilst I don't doubt that Ron had some difficulty righting his PA, it doesn't have to be difficult. 
It was demonstrated at a Victorian safety by a vyak member (Chevvy) just how easy it can be with the use of a strap. By the sounds of things he was much more slightly built than Ron and he did it with ease.

As far as a rear entry being the only way to re-enter the PA, well that's just not right either. I've have entered via the rear and also the side, and I found the side re-entry just as easy, if not easier. Others have also re-entered from the bow.


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## RekFix

kraley said:


> Kayaks are inherently unseaworthy.


That's it right there.


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## gbc

Kraley - I like outbacks - low seat, good underwater shape, narrowish beam, low cog, peddles AND a paddle - there's hardly any downside. You're right, seamanship is important and in my opinion old mate showed plenty of it, choosing to leave behind his gear and bring back a dam busting PA which was totally outclassed by the conditions - in my opinion.


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## Barrabundy

I also think that video is a must-see for all kayakers. It's one thing to imagine what you would do if you rolled your kayak but watching that demonstrates some of the issues. I've rolled mine so can relate to that guy but I still make a point of doing a practice re-entry every now and then to make sure I'm still up to the task.

One of the hazards of tipping a kayak was also apparent in the video and that was the paddle and other stuff that was leashed to the hull but floating in the water. Imagine ending up tangled in that somehow!

Top marks to the guy who posted that as an important reminder to all of us.


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## cheaterparts

it's worth reding Knoggs report on what happened



from Vyak site - Knogg said:


> Long and short of it,
> 
> I Went fishing with my dad off the west cape boat ramp, Cape Conran. He had my Cobra Fish N Dive and I had my decked out Pro Angler 12. The forecast was good, the weather was great for a fish and there was little to no wind in the sheltered cape. I had gone out for one drift to about 750m from the ramp and was drifting around the rocky point. Landed a good 3\4 kg parrot fish\ wrasse and was heading back in closer to my dad who stayed a lot closer. We both started drift fishing for flathead within 100 m from shore, both landed a couple each and I was drifting out a little more playing with the bigger wrasse again as I was impressed with the Aggression they were hitting my plastics with. Dad and I had 70m between us when thump whhoooshhh spray and whistle came over us. I (with shock) immediatley called it and wound the lines in. Dad got his line in but hadn't started covering ground yet.
> I treaded water for what felt like 5 minutes and thought he was in trouble, Turned out he was trying to get his hat that fell in. :x This is when the big gusts came he gave up on the hat and tried to come toward me. This failed and he was going backwards, He figured out his only option was heading into the nasty dangerous rock wall for shelter. once he turned for them I hit those pedals like the yellow gernsy wearing roid junky after 2 bananas and 3 quick jabs to the thigh.
> 
> I slowly forced my way through the wind to make it a little closer to the ramp and realized I needed to go out deeper and in the opposite direction to what i really really wanted to go. These kelp clusters were so big and on the surface my Mirage drive was getting tangled and I had to wait to drift off them. I got around the kelp and rock groin and had to get the yak back inline with the ramp, I had it facing the opposite way and the wind, waves and tide were all to strong and pedaling frantically I was going no where I couldn't turn so I just let it push me back and I just hoped the nose would go where I wanted. once it did i had to go back as quick as possible as i had rocks and cliffs everywhere. Closer in to the ramp around the rocks the waves were so churned up with white wash and breaking swell I had to get in fast.
> 
> A very short time later as I got a little pace under my belt, I was on the Face at the top point of the surging swell when A good gust came over me bringing a breaking wave square to the side of the Pro Angler, With this steep angle clearly The Yak was as good as upside down and I knew it. As it went over I tried beating it to it and stepped out hoping to sacrafice myself to keep the yak upright but it didn't follow that train of thought and just followed my lead.
> 
> I was full of stress and panic, and clambered back on to re flip it, I had hoped that a side re entry would work but it didn't. so onto the back I went. i got back to the ramp as i watched boats coming in from every where it hit home then how bad it really was and not just for a Yak. i Beached the Yak and went for a 200m walk to find dad and his yak safe on the beach past the rocks with some of my gear. 60L esky and heaps of water proof tackle boxes amongst a few other things. I hadn't realized i lost a rod i knew my paddle was gone as i needed it to get back in and used my net to steer. Dad and another bystander waded out in between a rocky valley to collect my stuff and on return I found my paddle there also. (Thanks to that guy) Dad felt horrible watching me from a distance completley helpless as I scrambled back on the PA and getting thrown around like a rag doll. Im now glad he tried nothing as it would not have ended well. Having to flip over twice with that much stress, pressure and panic was about it, I really didn't have much more left in me so please always try remain calm and don't panic as it zaps your energy levels to nothing
> 
> All in All I fared very well for what happened and how much gear I have in the front hatch, which I later discoverd FULL of water. my Pelican iphone case kept the water out but the plano one I had my keys and normally wallet in took in some water. Luckily the remote still worked for the Amarok. My remote for the go pro was in a velcro pocket of my jacket and is fine but salt was expelled from a few joins for a while. I have since used the remote strapped to my wrist wake boarding which surely flushed out any other salt.
> 
> Pro anglers with large swell behind turn out of control and want to get broadside to the wave the you are in danger of those large rounded sides rolling over, In future amongst many other things I think I would have been best keeping the nose pointed well out to sea whilst trying my hardest to control the direction I'm being pushed back in when I made a little distance straight out earlier the nose was punching straight through the swell not bobbing over I was getting hammered.
> 
> The visi carbon pole and gopro all went over and back up twice there was no damage to anything including the Lowrance elite 5 DSI but most importantly Dad and I were back on land safe and sound. As they say you have to get back on the horse so after it calmed a little I had another crack with all my gear removed I was hoping to find my rod but that was just hope, I was also curious if no gear would make a difference, it didnt and I went over again, dad filmed that from shore that i'll get off him later.


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## kayakone

kraley said:


> gbc said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a sea state (not a bad one evidently) where flat bottoms and high COG begin to work against us - I think we just got a lesson in where that starts. Might upset a few, but those things should stay in calm, protected waters - they are not seaworthy.
> Apart from being slower than flappy mirage drives, paddles are 'also' o.k. for performing braces, turning boats around (fishing tackle boxes back out of the drink) and other such mundane things. For me a paddle is part of what defines a kayak, and makes them so good at handling the ocean.
> 
> 
> 
> Kayaks are inherently unseaworthy. I have plucked a few 'real' sea kayakers from the drink on my (according to you, completely unseaworthy) outback - and the biggest factor of their needing rescue was their inability to handle being trundled into the water and getting themselves back into the cockpit.
> 
> Some of them weren't fit. But they also weren't trained how to deal with it (the inevitable occurrence of submersion) . Some of them were completely panicked (can't comment on their training - shit gets real when its real).
> 
> _Seamanship_ is the most important part of this equation - not 'seaworthiness' of any 'inherently' problematic vessel.
Click to expand...

I agree Ken about 'seamanship' as being important, as are inextricably linked 'experience level' and skills of the yakker, but I do not agree fully that 'seaworthiness' of a particular vessel can be discounted as being _unimportant_.  I have paddled/pedaled a number of SOT's and SIK's in all sorts of rough to very rough conditions, and the differences in behaviour are astronomical. Hull and deck shape, width, waterline length etc ... all highly variable factors between differing models. Some craft just simply shouldn't be taken into some places (conditions), regardless of the skills and seamanship of the yakker.

Gbc is referring to the PA as being 'unseaworthy' in this example, and while I haven't pedaled one, I have heard that the front hatch lets a lot of water in, and if this is so then I agree it is unseaworthy. Rhino on the other hand also takes his out in the blue, but his core and self rescue skills are well above that of the hapless victim. However, In his re-entry videos, he does comment on considerable water ingress, so maybe this is one craft to not be out there where conditions could endanger the yakker and his craft.

Just as there are skilled paddlers for certain places, there are special craft for certain places. It is a combination of all ...

http://www.worldrecordacademy.com/sport ... 12773.html (scroll down to Tao Berman YouTube)

trev


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## Berger

Tao Berman is amazing- more air and rock than water, at times.

I'd like to see him do waterfalls in a PA.


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## dru

If you intend being in big conditions you should be planning thoroughly for it. This involves training, back up equipment, and boat selection. The PA would not be on my list for work in big conditions. Nothing wrong with using one (subject to training equipment etc) if you are selecting the conditions.

(One of) The problem(s) you have with a "no paddle" approach isnt really about the form of motivation but about steerage. Most fishing yaks (with or without paddle) will eventually reach conditions where they make insufficient headway for the rudder to operate. You are then reliant on the paddle. Turning in these conditions with a paddle may not prove easy either, so you will also be reliant on the effort you have spent on your paddle skills. imo Hobie pilots should be looking at this as well as paddle pilots. Incidentally (on Safety Days) we have shown the PA to paddle very well. We did have problems in previous years (on Safety Days) adequately paddling one of the smaller Hobies, cant recall the name.

Seaworthy issues for the PA are largely a direct consequence of the things that it does extremely well. Bouyancy, stability and fish-ability. It is very stable upside down as well as rightside up. Possibly more so. It has much more exposure to the wind than most fishing yaks (which have much more exposure to the wind than the average sea kayak or ocean ski). The big forward hatch may have marvelous accessibility, but it is a point of attack for water entry in big conditions - or if you try a re-mount over the front deck. The bouyancy is wonderful but this creates more freeboard when you try to re-mount from the side. Remounting from the rear means you need to clamber over/past the seat, rod holders etc, climbing through would not feel particularly stable to most yakkers. Particularly if you just had a fright. Side mount sounds smartest, but you do need to get over the freeboard. Additional straps and systems for this are wise, as is preparation and training in using them. This creates much improved safety on the PA, but does not imo make the PA an open water vessle.

Seaworthiness (or lack thereof) is an inherent character of all watercraft. Each craft has different strengths and different weaknesses (whatever the claimed generalisation that no kayak is seaworthy). Stability and Seaworthiness are different. The PA is not as seaworthy as say an Oasis or an Revo 13, or an Adventure. These Hobies more or less match the seaworthiness in most plastic SOTs. As long as you know how to use the paddle and engage it if necessary when conditions push - seaworthiness is roughly a match for SOT whether paddle of pedal in normal mode.

The strength or power of the mirage drive I do not dispute and I have no doubt at all over Hobies rescuing sea kayaks as stated. I have heard of Hobies pulling stink boats home.The mirage drive is a wondeful piece of engineering.

None of this makes the PA a natural choice for open water in big conditions.


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## kayakone

kraley said:


> gbc said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a sea state (not a bad one evidently) where flat bottoms and high COG begin to work against us - I think we just got a lesson in where that starts. Might upset a few, but those things should stay in calm, protected waters - they are not seaworthy.
> Apart from being slower than flappy mirage drives, paddles are 'also' o.k. for performing braces, turning boats around (fishing tackle boxes back out of the drink) and other such mundane things. For me a paddle is part of what defines a kayak, and makes them so good at handling the ocean.
> 
> 
> 
> Kayaks are inherently unseaworthy. I have plucked a few 'real' sea kayakers from the drink on my (according to you, completely unseaworthy) outback - and the biggest factor of their needing rescue was their inability to handle being trundled into the water and getting themselves back into the cockpit.
> 
> Some of them weren't fit. But they also weren't trained how to deal with it (the inevitable occurrence of submersion) . Some of them were completely panicked (can't comment on their training - shit gets real when its real).
> 
> _Seamanship_ is the most important part of this equation - not 'seaworthiness' of any 'inherently' problematic vessel.
Click to expand...

Ken
In these examples, you are mainly linking lack of skills to 'unseaworthiness' of the kayak. They are not related. They are two separate issues.

I agree "shit gets real when its real". Been there, by bad luck and bad design.



kraley said:


> kayakone said:
> 
> 
> 
> but I do not agree fully that 'seaworthiness' of a particular vessel can be discounted as being _unimportant_.  I
> 
> 
> 
> I myself can't think of a way to make a kayak that 'safe' for going out in the ocean in the variety of conditions that one might encounter. Its mostly up to the kayaker to avoid conditions that are bad and practice rescuing oneself if you guess wrong or have bad luck. In the end you are bobbing up and down in a wild, unpredictable place on a bit of plastic.
> 
> Its a pretty unseaworthy craft if handled incorrectly no matter what features you have if you don't know what you are doing.
Click to expand...




kraley said:


> you misread what I wrote


I don't think so.



kraley said:


> I said (in response to the original poster) that all kayaks would be classified as unseaworthy if you took a strict view of the topic. That is, they don't possess positive bouyancy, they are all prone to tip in a variety of circumstances, they all lack redundant systems for steerage and propulsion. I doubt that many of you carry a way to self bail effectively, either. I know I don't, beyond a big sponge (I wonder how big a leak I can keep up with with a sponge).


Cars will all slide (eventually), they can all roll over, they all break, etc. Also, despite the car's roadworthiness or otherwise, there is a large proportion of unskilled people behind the wheel. If you took a strict view of cars, by your criteria, all cars are unroadworthy.

A kayak floats a yakker. That is what it is designed for. Is it seaworthy? *We agree that there are many factors, including:*

* Different hull shapes etc that make some more suitable than others (in given conditions). Some are totally unsuitable for certain conditions.

* Skills and seamanship are very important.

* You can steer nearly any yak without a rudder (if you have the skills).

* A bailing system ought to be carried.

* Positive bouyancy ought to be added (particularly to SOT's that don't have bulkheads).

* You ought to have a back-up propulsion system (spare paddle).

If you can tick all of the above, I think a kayak is seaworthy. I think you are relatively 'safe'. In fact, as Dru has alluded to, some sea kayaks are far more seaworthy than SOT's, and IMO far more so than many powerboats.



kraley said:


> In the end you ar bobbing up and down in a wild, unpredictable place on a bit of plastic.


Yep. And that's is the fun of it.

trev


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## ArWeTherYet

eric said:


> kraley said:
> 
> 
> 
> all kayaks would be classified as unseaworthy if you took a strict view of the topic. That is, they don't possess positive bouyancy,
> 
> 
> 
> *cough*
Click to expand...

cough as well, mine is even certified as being sea worthy, but only for SA as there is no requirements to be sea worthy in oz.

"All vessels must be marked with a single traceable 'approved number';
All vessels must have inherent buoyancy. (In general this is about 30% of the vessel's operational
weight, but the vessel must be able to float when damaged)."


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## ArWeTherYet

> Fanboyz wrote:
> Even though it is not a fair situation to critique design elements related to handling and stability, it was quite extreme, the fact is that Knogg was able to right the boat, remain afloat, recover gear and return to the harbor. That in itself is a testament to the MirageDrive and the Pro Angler. Any paddle kayak would have been on the rocks long before. Would a larger rudder have helped? Maybe, but you have to have forward speed to get a rudder to be effective.
> 
> http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopi ... 0&start=15


If I got a hobie could I become a Rescue Ranger to?


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## gbc

Not until you can reverse it back through the "surf" (page 1). Give me a break.


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