# Carbon fibre paddles - which one?



## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi All,

Have upgraded my kayak to a Stealth Fisha 550. Looking at selling a couple of the kayaks in the fleet & using some of the proceeds to get a nice wing paddle.

I am looking at paddles like the Epic mid wing, Fenn 3, etc.

I am looking at doing more offshore paddling.

Anyone out there got any experience with these types of paddles/any advice to offer?


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## TheFishinMusician (Feb 5, 2007)

A few of us down here are paddling on bent shaft Werner low angle touring paddles. Kalsite & camano. 
From what I understand your technique needs to be spot on to get the benefit of a wing paddle, that & a fast hull (which you have). 
Now, I'm not a paddlers bum hole, but I'm really enjoying my Werner. It's really forgiving on my technique & shoulders & for those rare moments when I manage to put it all together it responds in kind & makes me look awesome!

Some of the other "real" kayakers on here will see you right.


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## Davebeat (Aug 17, 2007)

Bought a Carbon paddle from Stealth and very happy


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## Davebeat (Aug 17, 2007)

Bought a Carbon paddle from Stealth and very happy


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

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## theclick (Jun 25, 2007)

From my experience, if you are buying a Werner, get a 1 piece.

It will be stiffer, stronger, last longer, and you wont have a whine when you get sand stuck in your socket.....


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## theclick (Jun 25, 2007)

I just like posting...

(p.s. Do not get a 3g dongle in a low reception area)


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## TheFishinMusician (Feb 5, 2007)

theclick said:


> I just like posting...
> 
> (p.s. Do not get a 3g dongle in a low reception area)


Don't tell me you've got sand in your dongle too? :lol:


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks for the replies guys.


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## Scott (Aug 29, 2005)

I have a Stealth Blitz 1 piece wing i use with my 550 fisha. It was what Bazzoo recommended. I had never used a wing before but Bazz told me it would improve my paddle style. It did seem to, it made me rotate a bit more and straight away i increased my paddle fitness due to the improved stroke. I have now clocked up a couple of hundred hours paddling (mainly for fun and fitness) with the 550 and Blitz combo and haven't even looked at my other couple of carbon touring paddles. I even use it to paddle my Adventure and have found a bit more speed out of this hull due to the paddle and my improved stroke. While i have heard they are not as good for bracing, i haven't had any issues in this regard. I am not a paddle instructor and i am not saying i know what is best, only how the 550 fisha and short Stealth Blitz one piece paddle have changed the way i paddle and also put a lot more enjoyment into having a paddle for fun and fitness.


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## kas (May 5, 2009)

Hey Adam, I have an "Enduro" paddle which you are free for a loan of considering were just around the corner from each other. Similar to Scotts & davebeats (if memory serves me correct) although slightly less volume being better suited to my size & longer distances.let me know if this suits & we can arrange a time.
The important thing is to get a paddle that will suit you & even more so I would suggest some paddle tech lessons, it's amazing what 1 or 2 sessions can do.
http://kayakspecialists.com.au/kayak-pa ... uro-enduro


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## mehi (May 25, 2009)

I personally use a 210 Feathered Spoonbill with a 55 degree offsetting 
Since purchasing this paddle 2yrs ago I have notice my paddling technique has improved drematicly 
Definitely recommend upgrading to a better paddle. I would be taking up any offers to try out various paddles
Good luck in your search for a matching paddle, you won't be disappointed


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks again everyone for the replies.

I am pretty much set on getting a wing paddle because of the speed benefits. I'm allergic to proper surf launches being particularly untalented in my few attempts, so anticipate some longer paddles. I would also like to get my fitness up & paddling the Stealth will be more fun anyway.

The professional surf ski racers use wing paddles because of the extra speed they get, & there is the safety aspect as well. If you can paddle faster, you can get out of foul weather quicker.

I will definitely need to work on my technique & will try & take a few lessons when the finances are back in order.

Thanks for the offer on the Enduro KAS. I'll take you up on it but I have got my kayak in being repaired at the moment - only paddled twice & managed to hit it on an old oven the lady of the house has me keeping in the garage, doh!. :shock: 

Visiting a few relatives & friends in my days off, so probably won't be able to get out for a paddle until sometime next week.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Salty, Let me know if you want to borrow my (carbon) crank handle euro-paddle. It'll give a better idea of the improvement with a carbon wing.

Mate, the Stealth 550 is entirely a good combination with a carbon wing paddle (so I wont trot out the usual caveats and euro-paddle advantages). I'm not so sure that a wing will increase your rotation, or at least while it is true, it's probably not really the right "attitude" (for want of a better term). To me it's more that a wing is unforgiving if you dont use full rotation and a full vertical style of paddling. They sort of dictate how the blade goes through the water. I have spent a little time with sea kayak instructors to ensure I get the best out of a euro-paddle. If I was using a wing, I'd be doing the same with ocean ski (race) coaches. Not because I'd want to race, but because I'd want to have the best advice on using the wing.

The extra "go forward" in a wing is due to movement sideways out from the ski. Note that the stroke is actually at an angle back from the ski, but it is the sideways bit that gives the extra performance. The top hand will move outside the edge of the ski as well, especially with a ski as wide as the Stealth (note that we are now comparing with racing ski's when playing with wings).

The Epic mid is a perfect paddle selection (do definitely avoid "large area" or "large volume" wings, for racing only, you will want something more forgiving). Stealth will have something that matches. I'd also suggest 65 degree feather (not less, although less may be better on a euro-paddle). Finally, length is key. The race guys sometomes increase length to increase resistance for strength training. Really suggest that would be a good way to injury at the start. You should notice an immediate improvement and immediate speed increase as you shorten up the length. For me this would be 212cm, though I would be checking if 210cm was better. I am 178cm tall on a kayak 54cm wide, using the same paddle on a kayak 70cm wide. Worth checking though because the Stealth is surprisingly bouyant, and I might end up using a length 1cm or 2cm longer on a 550 than on my sea kayak.

Have fun, and do pm me if you would like to borrow my Mitchel Crank euro-paddle.

Dru


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks Dru, might take you up on that. Your paddle looks pretty cool & would be good to know what the difference is in the real world between something like that & a nice wing paddle. Theory is all well & good but there is alot to be said for personal experience too.

Thanks for the info too. I wasn't even looking at the large wings. I don't want to be a sprinter & it looks like you need to be a real beast to paddle a large wing over decent distances without doing yourself any damage.

I'd really just like to cover decent distances at a decent clip, work on my paddle technique & start doing a bit of paddling for fitness. My fitness is woeful at the moment & although I don't have many opportunities for a long fishing session, I do get quite a few for a quick paddle & the Stealth is more fun to paddle than my old Scupper, so figure I might as well make the most of it.


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## kas (May 5, 2009)

Love watching this vid, you can some some differing techniques here. Some guys have a really high/vertical entry (bit more k1 style)

http://vimeo.com/m/6903986

Have a look at this one also, no lazy side to side paddling here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qye7boyp ... ata_player

Dru, you may have some good videos/clips showing how flat bade technique differs......

So many things to consider re paddle choice, & then their differing technique or styles. There is no perfect paddle unfortunately but a wing will give more speed if used correctly but a flat blade works better for technical strokes.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks for those videos Kas. I've got alot of work to do. Those guys make it look very natural.

I like this video too. Helps me try & work out what I should be doing.


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

It's worth drawing the path of the blade through the water.

The "style" we often see from paddlers on very wide SOTs with low paddling has the back not rotating, arms "cycle", and the blade sweeps through the water. The path of the blade is a curve Centres around the spine. This is all minor muscle groups, but they are muscle groups we are used to using, arms, biceps etc. The paddle drive is a turning motion on the yak. Best paddle choice is low area blade, as symmetrical blade long and narrow. Or better a GP stick. If we launch where we fish and don't paddle far, what the hell. Even with the GP rotation should be involved.

If you paddle a bit longer, the most simple method to rapidly improve the above is simply a shorter shaft... And lessons which will focus on torso rotation. The biomechanics of the body dictate that rotation using the large muscle groups down the side of your body is the most efficient. Upper hand height in a so called "low" paddle stroke will not be lower than your nipples. In the world of yak fishing, people can mistake this this for a vertical stroke and the above "sweep" for low style. The sweep is technically wrong, but injury risk may be reduced if distance paddled is minimal.

Euro-paddle stroke, even in low style, rotates the body, but the blade moves parallel to the centre of the yak close to the gunnels. Entry should be around your toes, exit by the hip. Speed up by faster cadence and shorter stroke (exit earlier, dont enter late!). They used to say upper hand should not cross the centre of the yak. This is old advice and on a fat yak I push the upper hand way past the side of the yak. There should be a natural pause between strokes letting the yak "glide". Lower arm elbow should not go past 90 degrees at any stage.

Euro-paddle stroke, with a high style had the upper hand between nose and eyes. This starts using more of the upper shoulder muscles. It can be tiring at first, but once you train a bit it is more powerful. Blade shapes that are more square and larger volume can be coped with. The stroke through the water parallel to the yak will see the drip guard buried and a sloppy exit. To overcome this, take a line a little wider at the exit, so the blade path is at an angle to the yak. Also helps rotation. The lower arm elbow will stay mostly straight until very close to the exit and never bends more than 90. You can already see this is starting to look like a racing style using wings. More or less this is how I like to think I paddle when I am in form. I use a GP stick as a backup with a rotating sweep stroke, very low, and using different muscle groups.

From here to the wing, the angle simply gets a little wider. In racing you would focus on entry getting the blade far forward, accelerate the blade sideways ( to max the wing advantage), but not too far, keep the blade vertical ( or you are not properly engaging your "engine"), exit works to naturally drop the water picked up by the wing. Keeping the blade vertical can result in upper hand even higher than the eyes.

Through all versions, injury reduction means rotation.

Coach will also look to grip, upper hand release in the mid neutral position, entry position, symmetry, Hip rotation, knees movement, the list goes on. Obviously the only real method to take it seriously... Is to see a coach. Note as well, this is just the forward stroke!


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

I know it is time to let this thread go, but I remembered a paddle vid which simply captures everything you might want to aim for with a wing. Yes it is racing, but also very didactic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70XD4roN ... e=youtu.be


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## DennisT (Jan 2, 2012)

Dru,

Thanks for the share.

Knut, really gets his blade across the deck when the opposite blade is in the water. Sensational body rotation ( about 1:10 into the vid). Its unreal how easy he makes it look - one word comes to mind - FLUID

Well after that share Dru, I am glad you didnt let it go....


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks for the videos Red, Dru. They are pretty interesting, especially the last one. I was really surprised how much sideways action there was on his paddling technique. I knew I would have a lot to learn with a wing paddle. It makes me realise just how much. I was originally thinking of a straight draw, then flare slightly to the side on exit.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks for the videos Red, Dru. They are pretty interesting, especially the last one. I was really surprised how much sideways action there was on his paddling technique. I knew I would have a lot to learn with a wing paddle. It makes me realise just how much. I was originally thinking of a straight draw, then flare slightly to the side on exit.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Salty, don't make it too tough either. Take the wing and simply play.

Love it.


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## kas (May 5, 2009)

Wow! What form
Great clip dru


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

I would actually (belatedly) like to recommend a carbon wing paddle which should be on the short list.

Rob Walker is Xamax. Web: http://www.xamaxwater.com.au/
His wing weighs in at a top of 600g, it's 2 piece adjustable 210cm to 220cm (and feather), comes in multiple blade sizes. He is likely to recommend Size 1 (there is also a size 0) which more or less equates to mid wing. Rob did the recent repair to my SIK and I cant rate him highly enough. He also coaches, so I would add an hour with him when I bought the paddle. The paddle is $440 which seems good (my europaddle is $600). Not sure what coaching costs. I would pick up the hour coaching straight up, he will be more than happy steering a newcomer in the right direction, he doesnt _just_ coach fine tuning to high end athletes.

If you are still hunting, I would definitely check him out. If you already have a paddle, I would still speak to him about some quick coaching.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks for that Dru. Trying to sell a couple of the old kayaks to finance the paddle, so I am still looking.


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## egg83 (Dec 29, 2010)

I use a 2 piece knysna junior swing, im 6'6 and have it set at 214cm and around 70 deg. Ive found i can sustain higher speeds than the old standard paddle i had.
I could probably do with a larger wing, but then id find it even harder to troll pillie rigs at a resonable speed, I usually average over 7km/h on a slow paddle, so have to keen an eye on the gps to slow myself down.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

egg83 said:


> I use a 2 piece knysna junior swing, im 6'6 and have it set at 214cm and around 70 deg. Ive found i can sustain higher speeds than the old standard paddle i had.
> I could probably do with a larger wing, but then id find it even harder to troll pillie rigs at a resonable speed, I usually average over 7km/h on a slow paddle, so have to keen an eye on the gps to slow myself down.


 :lol: 
There is so much with that would have some rolling their eyes. But matey, it's perfect. We are on a wave length. Best of luck. Slowing down a troll takes discipline!


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## Wrassemagnet (Oct 17, 2007)

I picked an epic mid wing two piece and am glad I did. It was recommended to me by the guy i took lessons with. There has been a steep learning curve and several adjustments to both length and feathering angle necessary to get a very comfortable stroke out of it. It suits my small hands. It's really light. It works in the slop as its forgiving. It can do all the technical strokes even in joggly conditions although I will give credit to Rob Mercer and thanks to Dru as before that day at Watsons Bay I was struggling. Last week I was lucky enough to get out several days in a row for long hours in various ocean conditions and all I can say is I really love this paddle. Dru, I found the shorter length recommended by Rob didn't work for me on my 575, I think because I'm stumpy and the 575 is a bit wider than an ocean SIK. All the issues about turning in windy conditions have much reduced with longer paddle and some leaning back/heel bracing to take advantage of that sweet rocker and my stumpy leverage dude.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Cool, thanks Jim. The mid wing seemed like a pretty popular paddle for surf ski racers which was why it was on my starting list of paddles to check out. Have seen that it is pretty forgiving a number of places online.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

The stealth 550 and 575 seat position is a couple of inches higher than a SIK too. I mentioned earlier that I might extend my perfect SIK length for a Stealth. Definitely the mid wing though for me to balance the slightly longer shaft.

Don't forget the Stealth wings. That gives a list of 3, not bad for investigating further.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Cool, thanks Jim. The mid wing seemed like a pretty popular paddle for surf ski racers which was why it was on my starting list of paddles to check out. Have seen that it is pretty forgiving a number of places online which sounds good for me.


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## egg83 (Dec 29, 2010)

dru said:


> egg83 said:
> 
> 
> > I use a 2 piece knysna junior swing, im 6'6 and have it set at 214cm and around 70 deg. Ive found i can sustain higher speeds than the old standard paddle i had.
> ...


And for the $120 i paid for it I really can't complain


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Here's a link from a racing club that makes sense. Little bit of theory on the wing. Very little bit of history. What they miss is that paddling styles had been moving to more upper hand movement outside the boat and the blade shifting at an angle. This lead to the thinking of getting lift from a wing, not the other way around. (ok I'm boring everyone again). Also note that contrary to some of the vids in this thread, a good wing stroke doesn't just have the blade staying in place as the yak goes forward. The blade also goes forward. What we'd all give for that sort of stroke!

http://www.cronullasutherlandkayakclub. ... Theory.pdf

Dropped into Ocean Paddlers at North Manly today. Reasonable range of what I might call "copy designs" at about $450. The big name originals are a lot more. Interestingly, they also have second hand paddles that will give change from $300. Worth checking.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Comments on the section "Strokes to avoid"

x the high brace is irrelevant. On a ski there is no way you are not falling off using a high brace. Stick to a low brace. Though Stevie might get away with it using knee straps.
x Duffek strokes are also irrelevant, they are a white water thing that I doubt can be carried out on a yak more than 4.0m long.
x end of stroke correction - that's where I'll be stuffed. But then it's poor technique anyway (ideally you want correction strokes that don't slow you down)

In the section "These strokes work fine"
x "Ruddering", bwaahaha! Try and hold the blade in position without it telling you it wants to be somewhere else. Rear rudder, maybe, but if you can't feather (edit: they call it sculling which is more correct) you can't rudder effectively either I reckon. But honest, work on keeping forward speed to keep the rudder working, or use sweeps inside the forward stoke.

Also the bit about returning to a flat blade and it shuddering... they wouldn't say it without foundation, but I reckon it's ok if you have a decent quality europaddle.

Finally, take note of the racing time improvements when blades were introduced. 2%. Not even matching the 3% to 6% I suggested earlier. Certainly not the 25% or 50% you hear claimed sometimes.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks again Dru.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks again Dru.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks to Dru & Slickmick for letting me try their paddles.

I'm raising funds & thinking about it some more. Will try & test out a few more paddles before I buy. Can definitely see Dru's points with a Euro style paddle, especially watching him with his technical strokes while edging, etc, but still think I want a wing paddle for that slight advantage in speed for the forward stroke.


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## Salty Dog (Sep 18, 2005)

Ended up getting an Epic mid wing. I was a bit impatient & didn't get out there & try many paddles but work was keeping me off the water & giving me the sh!ts, so I put some overtime money & the proceeds from the sale of one of my plastic fantastic kayaks towards the new paddle.

Now all I need to do is to try & learn how to use it properly. The funds will be recovering for awhile so I don't see any lessons on the horizon any time soon. Will just have to try & watch alot of videos & try & see how I go. I've got to build the fitness up too. It's just embarassing how easily I got tired using the new paddle for the first time.

Thanks to all for the help, suggestions, & especially to those that let me try out their paddles.


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