# Adventure Island in some rough stuff.



## Scott (Aug 29, 2005)

I am after some advice from experienced AI sailors. I got sick of the endless wind and took mine out yesterday. It made short work of some pretty average conditions where there were only two powerboats out. While out is Storm Bay sailing almost across the swell and confused seas i had no issues and was amazed at how stable these things are. I did quickly reduce sail a few times when i felt it had too much of a lean going when one of the amas was raised by a swell the the other was falling into the base of a swell.

My problem was when i started to head back in. At this point in time the tide was running out and the wind was against the tide. To get to where i launched i was running slightly across the swells. The swells were 1-5 - 2.0 metres with the top 1/3 breaking. There would have only been a couple of seconds between the swells. The seas were confused as i had three run out tides from three systems, one at 12 o clock to me, one at 3 o clock and one at 9 o clock. The wind would have been at about the 5 o clock position.

Because the swells were moving fast due to 20 or so knots of wind, they were moving faster than i was. Most of them i would surf down them for a second or so before falling off the back of them. Occasionally one caught my rudder, throwing it sideways resulting in the boat being thrown around 90 or so degrees broadside to the swell. How do i prevent this other than swearing when this happens as this method wasn't effective? It amazed me that the boat didn't tip when this happened.


----------



## TheFishinMusician (Feb 5, 2007)

I know that 180 feeling. 
We experienced similar conditions last weekend with 45 kilometer wind vs tide draining out of multiple Chanel's in pt Albert. 
4 ai's, all furled to varying degrees. Mostly running downwind. 50% of the time underwater. 
Ken & I had a little more sail out & would run down the face, burry the front for anywhere from 10 to 30 seconds then either pop out straight with minor rudder adjustment or slew almost 90 deg before the rudder would bite & off we go again. I had 1 or 2 decent broaches in the largest section but only 110 deg or so.

Eric & the predator figured it out better, they used less sail but would then use the pedals to tweak boat spead & help them maintain position on the backs of the waves. They may have spent more time submarining though due to sitting In between the short troughs for longer.


----------



## Scott (Aug 29, 2005)

Thanks guys and Mark i will try using the pedals. Also i just realized i said 180 degrees it was more like 90 or a bit over, throwing you sideways into the face of the swell. I wasn't using the pedals at the time i was concentrating on getting ready to completely furl the sail if necessary.


----------



## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

I agree with Tony Stott, with this added advice.

*Never let go your rudder *in such conditions, not even for a second. The (enormous) sailing rudders that have been around for just over two years are so efficient, that regular micro adjustments are all that are needed to maintain the heading. Conversely, in such confused seas, the slightest inattention to the heading (or momentarily letting go of the lever), will react on the large rudder and send you off where you don't want to go.

I believe this is what happened to you. Also, do not be afraid to further reduce sail. When you are burying the nose regularly, you have too much sail up, and each time it buries, speed washes off in a second or so and the rudder is less effective, hence the pedal use Tony has suggested.

Those conditions are a case of less (sail) is more (speed), and _intense concentration on the heading and fine adjustments_. One other thing I have found in rough water is that the small adjustment you try to make often requires a micro counter correction immediately afterwards. The rudder is almost too good!


----------



## mrwalker (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi Tony,
I'd be wary of putting that line on my belt. It can exert a lot of force on your back. A big bowline around the top of your chest would be preferable IMO. A friend of mine used to attach himself to his kayak by a line around his waist, he got rolled by an unexpected wave and actually broke his back. Still got ashore somehow!
The only thing I can add to the actual sailing discussion is move as much weight aft as possible, and definitely no centerboard.
Cheers, Dave.


----------



## gbc (Feb 16, 2012)

http://www.seabrake.com/

Make up something like this only smaller if the situation is really dire. Do AI/TI sailors use sea anchors for fishing? You blokes mostly troll though don't you?


----------



## Scott (Aug 29, 2005)

Thanks again guys, i definitely had my hand on the rudder, it was more like it being wrested from my grip. I will try removing the dagger board. My sea anchor is heaps to big to hang out the back, it is an large home made one. Maybe a small one would help? Where would you safely attach it to, i would assume it would have to be the centre of the rear of the hull?


----------



## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

Scott said:


> Thanks again guys, I definitely had my hand on the rudder, it was more like it being wrested from my grip. I will try removing the dagger board. My sea anchor is heaps to big to hang out the back, it is an large home made one. Maybe a small one would help? Where would you safely attach it to, i would assume it would have to be the centre of the rear of the hull?


Scott
I have just spoken to Michael from Burke (they are in Sydney), and being sailors, he had a few suggestions for maintaining heading in rough weather, and in surf landings which I have done a few times (yet to break the AI, but I'm sure it will happen eventually). Their sea brakes are far too big in his opinion.

Michael recommended very small drogues, something along the lines of:

1. a longish 10 - 12 mm rope out the back (say 20 metres) - a soft drogue. This had been previously recommended to me by an old sea salt as a possible solution for surf landings, to help keep the heading.

2. a small drogue such as Burke's 'Life Buoy Drogue', available from Whitworths.

3. a 50 cm drogue from Whitworths, possibly with a small length of light chain on it. Similarly Burke's easy stow drogue (also 50 cm), but with attached storage bag.

I am going to experiment with these options. Michel did say you would need a couple of boat lengths out, and considerably more for surf landings, as the drogue will have to be in unbroken water when the yak is in it. I hear you about "the rudder being wrested from your grip". Grip it harder, or further reduce sail a little to take some of the forces off it.

As far as attaching it, I suggest that the aka bar extremities may be a good place. Interesting to see what Toby Stott thinks, and or Mal Gray from Sunstate Hobie..


----------



## Sunhobie (Jun 22, 2006)

Fellow kayak yotties,
In these kind of conditions, (beam/broad reaching in confused seas) the fastest and most comfortable course to the destination, is a weaving one, ie bearing away from the wind and surfing down the waves, followed by hardening up (sailing closer to the wind to build speed) before pulling away again to run down the next one. The resultant speed increases the effectiveness of the rudder blade and therefore control and manouverability.
Another option is to sail upwind (away from the course) for a while until you improve the angle to your destination and then pull away and run downwind all the way to your destination. It is not usually very pleasant travelling in a straight line in beam seas. Most knockdowns (rollovers) on big boats happen in beam seas.
As Tony said, less sail is often faster in strong wind conditions.
Scott, you will find that as you rise to the crest of the wave, the wind is stronger than in the trough and the increase in wind, causes the boat to "round up" because of the pressure on the leech (back edge of the sail). This condition is improved if you release some mainsheet at the top of the wave as you bear away. As you speed down the face of the wave, you may need to sheet on to help the sail to work with the new wind angle.
Heavy air sailing is exhilarating on all boats, especially when your bum is 3 inches off the water!!!  
Mal Gray
Sunstate Hobie


----------



## Sunhobie (Jun 22, 2006)

Onya Crack!
Give those drogues a miss. Speed beats drag any day!! 
(unless you sail a cement mixer)


----------



## Scott (Aug 29, 2005)

Thanks Mal, that is a bit to take on board but i am sure as my experience grows i will be capable of quick furling and unfurling of the sail to respond to the conditions as you described to.


----------



## Sunhobie (Jun 22, 2006)

Scott said:


> Thanks Mal, that is a bit to take on board but i am sure as my experience grows i will be capable of quick furling and unfurling of the sail to respond to the conditions as you described to.


Not so much referring to quick furling adjustments Scott. More to adjusting the sheet rope in and out.
Mal


----------



## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

kraley said:


> Sunhobie said:
> 
> 
> > Scott said:
> ...


The voice of experience. :lol: 
Also, thanks Mal for your input. Just ignore Salti....he's on mushrooms, and catches tadpoles.


----------



## TheFishinMusician (Feb 5, 2007)

Thanks Mal.


----------



## Sunhobie (Jun 22, 2006)

I have used a drogue in open water, but never in surf, so I cannot speak from experience on this, but I would think that in breaking waves and shallow water, it would surely collapse and get wrapped around everything.
Reckon I would stay at sea all night and sail another 50 miles to avoid coming in through a gnarly overhead surf on an Adventure island or Tandem Island. or at least wait for the tide change or a miracle!
I have seen Hobie Cats demolished in surf, reduced to bits that would fit in the average box trailer.


----------



## matcoburn (Feb 6, 2009)

Good post....would be fun to watch an A.I. drag a drogue thru' the surf.....
Playing around...goofing around in small surf is a good skill builder for avoiding the stress on entries......but i would strip the unit down and just pick a day where there a 1 to 2 ft waves on a nice sloping reef or sand bank and go and play. Hopefully there might be some wind about.

With any exit strategy its good to pick 2 safe exits spots that will be suitable on the time of the tide and possible wind scenarios.

Your boat will always have more speed if the wind is cross shore to the breakers. If the wind is direct onshore ...this can be problematic since your boat will lose speed to a stop in the impact zone. This can happen b/c the wave behind you as you approach the shore has blocked the wind. Even though the wave maybe relatively small compared to the height of the sail, the wave will block the wind. Nuts i know. Direct offshore is a bummer too since the action of the wind is counter to the direction of the A.I. ...the good thing about offshore is that the wind cannot be killed as easily by the presence of waves. You can find an angle slightly cross to offshore can deliver speed to the A.i. and get you through the break.

Best thing to do on exits generally,
Pull up daggerboard
Wait for the last wave of the set and go in on its back
sail as fast as you can and kick like shit through the impact zone
keep looking around
watch the approaching (smaller) white water wall...attempt to catch it..
adjust your direction with the rudder and sail so that your stern is at a perfect right angle to the white water 
burst of speed with mirage drive before impact
steer straight.....relative to the white water...not the beach....you will lose most of your steering until the rudder makes contact with solid water rather than foam.
keep looking around
steer straight can also be achieved on onshore conditions by letting out all of the sail but allow it to wobble...this will help steer the boat forward when the rudder is absolutely useless.

loosen off the rudder about half line pressure so an impact with the sand is less likely but can still function.

think about pulling up your mirage drive once safe....or alternatively lock it flat to the hull in position and hook it with the bungle hook if time is too short.


Mat


----------



## matcoburn (Feb 6, 2009)

Tony...i would seriously love to see this drogue in action.
Playing with one in the small surf would be fun. Ive thought about this concept before and came to the conclusion that if the speed of the A.I. was halved through the impact zone...you would likely cop multiple wave impacts that your could have normally outrun without the drogue. 
And the other issue is...can you catch a wave or whitewater with the drogue attached? If the success of catching the wave is adversly effected there could be more pain and less gain by using the drogue. 
Perhaps controlling the amount of rope you had out could give you the best of both worlds......let more rope out in order to catch a wave...lock down the rope and watch the drogue do its thing.
(i could see people just letting the rope go and leaving the drogue to float about in the surf.)

This would be fun to try.

Field testing would be a great enterprise!

People should push their boats a bit more in controlled conditions and enjoy it.

Luv ya Big Gee
 
Mat


----------



## matcoburn (Feb 6, 2009)

Scott said:


> Because the swells were moving fast due to 20 or so knots of wind, they were moving faster than i was. Most of them i would surf down them for a second or so before falling off the back of them. Occasionally one caught my rudder, throwing it sideways resulting in the boat being thrown around 90 or so degrees broadside to the swell. How do i prevent this other than swearing when this happens as this method wasn't effective? It amazed me that the boat didn't tip when this happened.


These waves were probably not a continuous stream of waves hitting you. The ones that were knocking the boat sideway hit you from 'approximately' the stern area.........to avoid this you must watch your back on the lookout for incoming sets. You have to change direction of the boat for a few moments to let the big waves through and then continue on your prior course. Orient you boat so the so the 1/3 breaking wave hits you fair and square from behind. Each amas must be impacted at the same time. Also, the wind is usually less during a Big wave set...the A:I. will descend deep into the trough and your sail will lose its effectiveness on the prior settings. For a wind swell the wind direction is approximate to the direction of the waves, so you may need to let the sail out to billow so it catches some air and lifts the bow out of back of the forward the swell.

Back in 2009 when i bought my A.I. i was not too happy with its performance in these conditions. I'd searched around Melbourne yak shops looking for a wave deflector to keep the bow UP under these conditions. I'd finally found a crappy discarded one in a tangle of spiderwebs. So I'd stuck it on within 2 weeks of buying the brand new A.I. for 60 bucks and havent looked back. On the hobie site it generally has not been accepted by the resident experts.

The deflector does assist keeping the nose up and helps prevent the front half of the boat from submarining in wind swells.
:
Mat


----------

