# Propel system



## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

Just wondering if anyone has a kayak with a propel system, has experience with one or at least seen one up close.

http://www.nativewatercraft.com/features/propel.cfm?model=mariner&multi=1


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

kayaksportsmark said:


> Just wondering if anyone has a kayak with a propel system, has experience with one or at least seen one up close.


Mark am pretty sure one of the southern akffers had bought one, for use on south west impoundments and featured in the rigged kayak section including pics.


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## yankatthebay (Dec 14, 2007)

http://www.akff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28620


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## Greybeard (Mar 17, 2008)

Local Camping store at Belmont south of Newcastle NSW which by the way is starting to stock one of the biggest ranges of kayaks Iv'e seen, has them in stock now, went to have a look on tuesday cause Iv'e been watching them since the announcement that the mariner SOT was being bought out in America last year would love to have a trial some time and when i asked the salesman if they had sold any he said Three and they wouldn't have had them long knowing that the importer is located in the south of the country and they haven't had them long either. No idea about how sturdee the drive is but do know that they were designed by Shimano ( The Bike section) for Nativecraft only time will tell about their longevity.
Cheers Greybeard


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2010)

Hehehe...you can see the Shimano influece, if you have a look at the pics in the AKFF thread - the foot pedals have REFLECTORS!!!! heh......thats cool 8)

On a more serious note, they do look like they are well thought out and put togther 8)


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

I am thinking the ability to pedal in reverse may be a good thing for tight areas.


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## ausbass (Feb 15, 2007)

Greybeard said:


> the announcement that the mariner SOT was being bought out in America last year


Ive had a look at one of these (online), they are pretty impressive; probably comparative to a PA in the ability to stand up and fish comfortably.

All up the range looks good and I agree with Mark, being able to pedal backwards would be very handy!


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## spectrum (Aug 22, 2007)

Is there a possibility that they could retro fit one of these things into the Hobies do you think? I see their only drawback being shallow water and pushing through weedy areas. Would also be curious as to their performance as opposed to the Hobie fin system too. Now if only Hobie could design the fins to some how be reversible.

Regards
Jeff


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## justcrusin (Oct 1, 2006)

> Would also be curious as to their performance as opposed to the Hobie fin system too.


Search the American sites, from memory the fins were more efficient. This system has been available in the states for a while now.



> Now if only Hobie could design the fins to some how be reversible.


Pull them out an drop them in backwards ;-)

Cheers Dave


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

Just Cruisin,
Spoken like a true member of the Hobie Cult (hehehehahaha)
Seriously who wants to mess around pulling out mirage drives when you need to back the yak up to pull away from structure? Why I asked about anyone having experience on the propel system was to find opinion on the propel system and how it works and whether it works well. Thanks for contributing.


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks for the info Kraley its a good explanation on the two systems.
Great post.


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## Bart70 (Jan 28, 2007)

I would be interested to see the propel system.

From my Hobie experience I would find the limitation in shallow water way more of a hindrance than the need to go backwards.

After several years of Hobie ownership I can honestly say the number of times reverse would have been an advantage can be counted on one hand...and none of these instances created an inconvenience. In conversation I find that most who want a Hobie with reverse are generally people who have not spent a lot of time in a Hobie to see if it is really a disadvantage.

Bart70


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## Scott (Aug 29, 2005)

Bart70 said:


> I would be interested to see the propel system.
> 
> From my Hobie experience I would find the limitation in shallow water way more of a hindrance than the need to go backwards.
> 
> ...


That is funny, I definitely think the shallow water limitation would be a hindrance however for me to say that I could count the times I wanted to go in reverse to be an advantage on one hand would have been on my first breaming session. As soon as someone comes up with a better foot propel system I am there because why the hobie is currently the best until it can reverse it is a long way short of ideal in my humble opinion. As for JC's idea of putting the drive in backwards, if Hobies were decent to paddle you could do this but the only Hobie good to paddle is the Adventure which has a turning circle comparable to a semi trailer.


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## spectrum (Aug 22, 2007)

Come on Bart you can't be serious, or you have not paddled on a river and needed to pause or stop to cast to some decent cover chasing Bass. If you have the wind behind you, you are quickly pushed off the area you are planning to target. Peddling backwards would be a distinct advantage. Current too, can be a problem. There are times when you have to peddle into a snag or overhangs to retrieve a lure or fly. So it would be nice and easy to reverse out. I own a Hobie Out Back, and love it, but I am not silly enough to realise it doesn't have limitations.

Regards
Jeff


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## Nativeman (Sep 6, 2005)

Scott said:


> As soon as someone comes up with a better foot propel system I am there because why the hobie is currently the best until it can reverse it is a long way short of ideal in my humble opinion. As for JC's idea of putting the drive in backwards, if Hobies were decent to paddle you could do this but the only Hobie good to paddle is the Adventure which has a turning circle comparable to a semi trailer.


Here, here

Great Post


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## justcrusin (Oct 1, 2006)

Probably should have gone into more detail on the backwards bit. If I come up to structure that requires reverse to hold me in a good casting position, I'll pull the mirage drive out and reverse it. Takes a bit of getting use to with the reverse rudder but worth it with a bit of practice.

Cheers Dave


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## Yakattack2008 (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi Mark,
I've pedaled, paddled and fished out of the Ultimate 12 which uses the propel system (I wrote a review in the last issue of yak Fisher) and I have recently been testing the Mariner 10 propel. The propel system is a very strong unit, looks like it's made from quality materials, but as you would expect there's a bit of weight in it.
As far as speed goes between the mirage drive and the propel system, the mirage drive is definitely faster. With the propel system, a casual pedal will give you a steady speed on the water, but if you increase the speed you pedal it doesn't result in any significant increased speed on the water, no matter how fast you pedal. 
The theory behind this is that you don't need to exert a lot of energy to reach maximum speed; therefore you can sustain it for long periods. 
The Mariner propel is a great kayak, you can stand on it and fish, but it doesn't have the room or the stability of the Pro angler.
As far as clearance goes you don't need a lot of water to operate it in, but if you do get into shallow water, it's not very hard to lift the propel system out of the water, and it paddles surprisingly well, I also find the ability to go backwards is a great feature.
At the end of the day a test paddle will tell you if it's right for you, I've got a review of the Mariner 10 appearing in the next issue of Yak Fisher magazine which goes on sale 25th Feb

Cheers
Rob


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

As I often fish in reverse working SP's from the Adventure and find it a pain to turn the mirage around all the time (specially if you have hooked into something) so I was very interested to see how the Propel system worked. I went into Capacity Sports - 225 Bay Rd Sandringham, Melbourne (no affiliation) for a look and to see if they demo. They do not demo but you can hire for 90 minutes at $45.00 (if you buy the kayak they will refund the hire fee), I didn't hire one as time was limited and I planned to return on a weekend when I had more time but had a good look while I was there. The drive looks very well made but is quite heavy (around 8 kg compared to around 3 kg for a mirage) and doubt very much to fitting one in a Hobie drive slot.

About a month later I met a guy off Rosebud (he was from Adelaide) with one, after a bit of a chat I let him take the AI for a spin while I had a go at the Propel. The kayak was an ultimate 12, was very stable and able to stand (don't think it was as good as a PA though). As for the drive, water depth for use was not much more than what I need for my turbo fins, it was not as efficient as the mirage drive and felt it lacked power/speed for long trips in open water ( I am use to turbo fins, but for memory of standard fins, think they are still way better as well). Reverse however was just how I would like it to be, just start pedaling and you have an instant responce. The rudder was not as hard to handle in reverse compared to the Adventure, but to be fair, the AI's rudder has a lot larger surface area.

I did find that sitting up in a seated position, the pedals were harder to use than the mirage, the stroke over the top is higher and the circular motion compared to the push/pull was uncomfortable in the hip, I felt I needed to be laying down almost. Also felt a tendency to rock from side to side a little due to the pedal motion of the Propel (specially if I tried to crank it up a bit), all in all the Propel would be ok for smaller lakes etc but no good for blue water in my opinion (to slow), think it would also be very good in slow running creeks/streams manly due to the reverse capability when working around structure or fighting breeze as some have mentioned while still having at least one hand free to fish (in reverse you almost always need one hand on the rudder control or the rudder will flip due to water pressure, would also be the same trying to hold position in current so you will only hold position while casting not retreving).


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## spectrum (Aug 22, 2007)

Great review there ELM.

Just on another point. It has been suggested to me that carrying a small paddle like a Table tennis bat would be a way to employ a reverse when you need to back out of snags and the like. Not a bad idea, saves dragging out the big paddle every time.

Regards
Jeff


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## madfishman (Dec 10, 2007)

spectrum said:


> Great review there ELM.
> 
> Just on another point. It has been suggested to me that carrying a small paddle like a Table tennis bat would be a way to employ a reverse when you need to back out of snags and the like. Not a bad idea, saves dragging out the big paddle every time.
> 
> ...


We use the table tennis paddle in our comp fishing with the pro angler and in most cases this the best way to pull back from getting too close and works well.I tend not to get too close to the casting spot anyway as not to spook the fish in the comps. Wouldnt recommend the paddle on some of the more tidal places waste of effort, its all about lining up your drift before the cast. I can see the benefits of the propel system in a lake or smooth conditions but as for bay/tidal locations im not sure how it would handle places like redcliff or st georges basin as we had recently.

With the new mirage drive lock system i dont have any hassles in turning the drive around if need be, but only very rarely, i think ive done this only three or four times in the last 12months


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## YakN00b (Jun 9, 2008)

Seems like a 2 or 3 speed Propel system could be the answer.


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

I believe they have a range of 12 different prop sizes so that may make a difference in performance for what ever style you fishing you do. For the weight/size of the propel you would think it is a multi speed gear box, but it ain't.


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## Bart70 (Jan 28, 2007)

Jeff,



spectrum said:


> Come on Bart you can't be serious, or you have not paddled on a river and needed to pause or stop to cast to some decent cover chasing Bass.


I am deadly serious - and you are are right......I have never *paddled* a river chasing Bass for 2 reasons - I have never fished for Bass, and when I had my paddle yak I was fishing open water.

I have however *pedalled* rivers chasing bream - not small creeks but not wide open water either. Moreso in recent times than in the past. I often find myself in mangroves, snags, wedged in around oyster racks, and often in strong tidal pull and reasonable winds. Not sure of this counts though.... ;-)



spectrum said:


> If you have the wind behind you, you are quickly pushed off the area you are planning to target.


Key word here is "*if*". I guess the difference here is how you and I handle this situation when/if it occurs.



spectrum said:


> There are times when you have to peddle into a snag or overhangs to retrieve a lure or fly.


Yup...you are right again. Ask the guys I fish with. If there is a jetty, tree, or overhanging branch around I will lob a lure over it! I am not that good that I can avoid this (yet. :lol.

I tend to do what everyone else does - push off the snag, use the paddle, ping pong bat, net handle. Again - I do not wish I could trade my shallow water functionality for reverse functionality. I think this was what I said in my post.



spectrum said:


> I own a Hobie Out Back, and love it, but I am not silly enough to realise it doesn't have limitations.
> 
> Regards
> Jeff


I am glad we agree - I actually made reference in my post to the limitations of both Propel (depth) and Hobie (lack of reverse) so I have to agree with you that I cannot be that silly to think that Mirage Drives (or Propels) do not have limitations. ;-)

Just a case of weighing up your personal opinion on the limitations and making your choice. Clearly your choice is different to mine. I can live with that 

Bart70


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

does the propel system pivot up in shallow water ??? like a well desinged rudder .or does it lock into place like the mirage system .

craig


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

i'd hate to get my line tangled around the propellor.....

I can see this being an issue for the prop system - on face value I reckon in it would get clogged with weed etc more easily than the Hobie fins and if you inadvertantly got your line snagged around the prop, it wouldnt be great..

Each sytem seems to have its merits though..

Craig - I think like an outboard motor the prop system has a piece of material in front of the prop which will strike the ground before the prop does and pop the unit up


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## forbs (May 20, 2008)

I fish really skinny water, well used too before last week (tuross). I'm always pressing the hobie fins up aginst the hull too go over a shallow weed bed. That's the main reason i wouldn't contemplate the propeller option and a reason i don't get an electric motor for the drive hole. However there are a million times i would of liked to reverse out of a snag and on one occasion that would of saved my $500.00 Ian miller rod as well. So bring on the competition i say and hopefully they force Hobie into more development and some better technology for the mirage drive. Might also keep pricing in check if there is good opposition.

I'm Hobie through and through but i'm design advancement even more.


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

craig51063 said:


> does the propel system pivot up in shallow water ??? like a well designed rudder .or does it lock into place like the mirage system .
> 
> craig


Craig, the propels are mounted and hinged from high in the front of the cockpit so if you strike bottom they will hinge up, but they will only hinge completely up if the prop is aligned with the slot properly, otherwise the prop will catch on the bottom of the hull and leave it protruding out the bottom. The prop does have a blade in front for protection.


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

Elm,
thanks so much for taking the time to explain how the system works. Its much appreciated
Mark


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

No worries Mark, happy to help.
Personally, comparing them to the Mirage drive, it was chalk and cheese. Two very different units and for me the mirage won by a long way.

Propel and the Native are both very well made and finished, I think in a lake working in .5 meter + of water around weed beds or in lagoons and around boat moorings/pontoons where there is depth and you want that little extra control with reverse and not covering great distance, they would be ideal. As I have said a few times, I like fishing in reverse, working close to structure etc you can cruse past and then cast into without drifting in with the momentum from coming in forward + there is the added element of surprise or if you are working the edge of a drop off you have a lot more control of your jig/lure, position and the way it works, so for this they are also great. If you are heading out into open water like PPB etc and covering a bit of distance, they don't equal the performance of the mirage, specially with turbo fins, ok to reverse as I do, you have to turn the mirage but considering the distance I cover as well, I will stick with the Mirage.


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

do the prop driven boats use a similar hand controlled rudder system as the hobies?


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi DaveyG
Yes very similar position, here is a good video of some in use and being prep'd. You will see the lever on top of the left gunel next to the operator,The surface area of the rudder is a lot less than the Hobie AI rudder I feel, so not as hard to control (stop from snapping to full rudder) in reverse due to water pressure so was a lot easier to use in reverse and seemed quite adequate going forward.
http://www.nativewatercraft.com/media/v ... propel.cfm


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## Cylon (Jan 30, 2010)

This has been a really informative thread, thanks to all for the info and opinions.

I too have had a look at the Marina 10 with the propel, but am yet to give one a testdrive. I had a quick spin in a Hobie Sport a year ago and liked it, but would really like to try each on the same day to see which I truely prefered. All my fishing at the moment is done out of WP and PP bays, so after reading these posts, I'm now thinking the lack or reverse isn't so much an issue with the Hobie, where as its greater efficiency over the Native, is.
Gunna have to have another peddle of the Hobie now, (Outback), before I make a decision.

BTW, how much are these new??? The Marina 10 is $2500 at Capacity Sports.
What sort of speed/efficency diff do the turbo fins give the Outback compared to the standard?

Decisions, decisions!!


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

Turbo fins make a huge difference Cyclon, come down to Sunnyside this Saturday 20th feb, there is a get together and expecting 20+ yakkers. Good chance to chat to some of the guys, have a look and possibly a go at a few different kayaks and to see some great setups. PM me for more details if you want.
As for price, I have not kept track but they (Outback/Native) were very compareable 12 months ago and doubt much would have changed.

Another thing to remember and that I have not mentioned before is, the Native Propel is a SIK not a SOT so it is not really suited to PPB/Wesernport and (my opinion) off shore blue water.


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## kayaksportsmark (Apr 1, 2009)

Edit: Elm wrote: "Another thing to remember and that I have not mentioned before is, the Native Propel is a SIK not a SOT so it is not really suited to PPB/Wesernport and (my opinion) off shore blue water."

Looking at the NativeWatercraft website http://www.nativewatercraft.com there are two versions of the fishing yaks with propel system. 
The Ultimate sit in kayak
and 
The Mariner sit on top


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

Thanks for that Mark, I have only seen/used the Ultimate.


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## Cylon (Jan 30, 2010)

Hey ELM, thanks for that!

What time on Saturday are you guys meeting at Dodgyside?? I might come over for a look see.

Cheers,
Andrew.


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

6 am on should be right, bbq later on.


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## johnny (Aug 12, 2007)

looked at them in a display...well designed....seemingly for enclosed waters[calm waters] as evidenced by the canoe style design in some models...seems to be agreement on superiority of hobie propulsion...not as well designed in hulls/options/utility as hobie either...but they are producing very good products..


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## bundyboy (Sep 6, 2009)

Very informative thread thanks fellas! I know I definately could have used reverse a couple times. Fighting a fish, reeling in a second line and turning the mirage drive around all at once was too much for me to manage. Luckily the fish was still on by the time I reeled in my spare line, did a u-turn and resumed the fight on the other side of a rock wall.


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