# Mirage drive V Paddling



## mantabay (Mar 1, 2008)

Has anybody put a mirage drive up against a paddler ? How do they compare over distance and speed ?


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Mirage drive would win hands down , and in fact mirage drive does win hands down , but paddlings great


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## Big D (Apr 28, 2007)

I haven't had a kayak for long (My Quest) but I'm not too sure the conclusion is as simple as mirage winning hands down. I think that pushing the pedals is a pretty easy task (my mate took his for a spin with me for his first time today - an Outback). I found I was easily able to keep up with him at a cruise speed (but I've got a Quest, the hull shape would be a bit faster I think) . I've read a lot on this and other sites about correct paddle technique and really tried to utilise correct technique, concentrating on torso rotation, paddle height, entry and exit points etc, but it was only my 2nd paddle, and I've got a looooooong way to go. The way I see it I've got both physical endurance I can work on, and technique. As far as I can see there's not too much technique involved in pedaling, apart from getting the mirage set up right in the first place, and after that it's only getting the legs accustomed to and built up to the task.

I think what I'm trying to say is that if someone wants to just jump in a yak and move long distances without using too much energy, and with no real skill involved, then the mirage is good. For someone who is willing to build up their technique and upper body strength/endurance to a high level, and use the paddle to a fishing ground as a solid training exercise, then I reckon the difference in top speed and long distance ability when comparing pedal vs paddle closes somewhat, and the outcome would depend on the ability of the paddler.

Hmmm, I know what you're all gonna say, the newbie thinks he can come on here and start jumping to contraversial conclusions after 2 paddles, well I say what I think, but I'm wise enough to know that I am sometimes wrong though and am prepared to eat my words after gaining a bit more experience on the water ;-)

Big D

p.s. One of the major benefits of the mirage as I see it would be that I could lift the yak above my head and onto the 4wds roof racks by myself as easily AFTER the trip as before the trip! I got my Quest on today (just) after a 7k paddle but couldn't lift my mates Outback by myself! It must weigh a fair bit more.


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## Astro (Nov 27, 2006)

pedalling is easier and most people are able to maintain it for longer using their legs muscles....

i have seen how you are built manta...your arms are an average persons legs...but saying that the ability to fish hands free is the real benefit i feel

when i am out for makerel etc i troll a Hb and have my casting rod with metal slice at the ready so as soon as i see fish i can fire off a slice within a couple of seconds...this is how i caught that tuna earlier this year and has accounted for numerous mackerel last year...

next time i come up try my OB...remember it is not a sleek machine but still motors


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## Ado (Mar 31, 2008)

If you go to this page, and scroll down, you'll see a few downloadable videos of a tug of war between a single mirage drive, and a tandem paddle kayak armed with olympic paddlers. It's Hobie's video for sure, but it's a pretty convincing piece of propoganda.

http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/miragedrive.html

On a personal note, I've done a reasonable amount of paddling in my time, so I would say I have a fair technique. I can maintain very similar speeds both paddling and predaling my Adventure, but it's less effort (both aerobically and lactic) when pedalling. I still paddle a lot of the time, especially if doing a bit of distance while not fishing, but I do this as a fitness exercise because pedalling just isn't enough cardio for my liking.

I can see this being a very long thread. Red flags and bulls :twisted: :twisted: 8)


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

The way I see it is if you can favourably compare an Outback to any other paddle yak then the mirage drive must be pretty good. It's like pedalling your average dining table around...lol. This is not a sleek yak. Huge and stable and can get up and go too. I'm not particularly fit but can cruise all day covering loads of ground with heaps of gear on board and not feel sore afterwards. Admittedly my paddle yaks aren't the greatest in the world but stability wise they are not even in the ball park. It all comes back to what you want. I'm looking at starting to paddle my Invader in the Onk river for the exercise (which is why I went a yak in the first place) to balance out my exercise but for long fishing or fishing/camping trips I'll definitely be taking the Outback, maybe towing an Invader for gear...lol.. I have seen first hand the tug of war between the tandem paddle and a revo and the tandem was manned by some of the Port Power lads. They were trying. They broke paddles from digging in deep and going hard but were just dragged backwards any how by one of the Binks marine guys out of the shop wthout apparent effort each time. It all depends what you are after. Where you want to go and what you want to do. If I want to play in the surf i won't be taking my Outback...lol.
Cheers
Mike


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## petanquedon (May 27, 2008)

I will suggest that you need to invest some time to learn how to paddle and that most people are stronger in their legs than their arms and back.

I will suggest that a more appropriate test would be over some distance of between 1-5 Km.

Is paddling more efficient once you are moving?

While I suppose many people hope catch large fish. Who is going to tow them?

One would think with the availability of heart rate monitors and GPS units that some sort of test where average speed at a moderate heart rate of say 110 to 120 should be technically possible to do.

Or alternatively to maintain a certain speed who has the lower heart rate.

Certainly these would be more relevant tests.

So why do Hobie introduce these irrelevant facts?

A talented lawyer I know suggested that if you are loosing an argument you start to introduce irrelevant facts.

Logically I have no idea if this is their strategy.

While a mirage drive may be good for a tug of war is this what you wish to do?

The argument about leaving your hands free seems very relevant for fishing.

It would seem if you have arm problems the mirage drive would be wonderful.

Equally if you have leg problems a mirage drive may only be good for catching weed.

I must admit I wonder:

How you use your hips to stay upright with a mirage drive?

How to you go backwards with a mirage drive?

How do you navigate shallow water with a mirage drive?

How do you manoeuvre in tight areas with a mirage drive?

How do you brace with a mirage drive?

Would rudder failure be a potential disaster with a mirage drive?

Perhaps these issues are not very important depending on how you use the kayak.

Mirage drives seem to have a large group of loyal followers this suggests these users are happy with the product.

Is it the best solution for you?

It probably depends on a lot of things.
:? :?


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## L3GACY (Sep 2, 2007)

petanquedon said:


> I will suggest that you need to invest some time to learn how to paddle and that most people are stronger in their legs than their arms and back.


Agreed.



petanquedon said:


> I will suggest that a more appropriate test would be over some distance of between 1-5 Km.


Agreed again.



petanquedon said:


> Is paddling more efficient once you are moving?


Don't think so.



petanquedon said:


> Or alternatively to maintain a certain speed who has the lower heart rate.


Depends what speed but I'd put my money on mirage drive.



petanquedon said:


> Certainly these would be more relevant tests.


100%.



petanquedon said:


> So why do Hobie introduce these irrelevant facts?


Because winning against two olympic paddlers no matter how you do it will get people's attention.



petanquedon said:


> A talented lawyer I know suggested that if you are loosing an argument you start to introduce irrelevant facts.


Don't think the mirage drive has anything to prove anymore, they have their place in the market whether we like it or not.



petanquedon said:


> While a mirage drive may be good for a tug of war is this what you wish to do?


Torque isn't that relevant in my eyes, unless you want to tow a boat... Yes, it has been done ;-).



petanquedon said:


> The argument about leaving your hands free seems very relevant for fishing.


Definitely the main selling point in my eyes.



petanquedon said:


> How you use your hips to stay upright with a mirage drive?


Wouldn't matter in the outback. Would love to hear from an adventure owner though!



petanquedon said:


> How to you go backwards with a mirage drive?


Reverse the drive. Not practical really.



petanquedon said:


> How do you navigate shallow water with a mirage drive?


Use your paddle.



petanquedon said:


> How do you manoeuvre in tight areas with a mirage drive?


From what I've heard the Sport is great in tight situations. I imagine a paddle would be mandatory.



petanquedon said:


> Would rudder failure be a potential disaster with a mirage drive?


If you don't have a paddle with you.



petanquedon said:


> Is it the best solution for you?


Nup :lol:.


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## Breambo (Apr 19, 2006)

Depending on the paddler or peddler a mirage may sometimes have a speed advantage. Over distance a mirage will fail before a paddle, even if the paddle snaps in half it can be used as a single paddle :lol:
If the water was only six inches deep Id back the paddle :lol:


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## radar (Nov 4, 2007)

If the water was only six inches deep Id back the paddle :lol:[/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: crack me up!


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## solatree (May 30, 2008)

mantabay said:


> Has anybody put a mirage drive up against a paddler ? How do they compare over distance and speed ?


Depends on the purpose of the comparison and which boats are used for the comparison. I expect my Hobie Sport (with me peddling) would loose to an experienced (oe even maybe inexperienced) Stealth / Prowler 4.5 paddler.

I guess the fairest test on the specific question (ie removing all variables such as hull shape etc), would be to do a times distance / speed test using the same person in the same mirage yak, peddled and then paddled. Pretty sure if I did this, paddling and peddling my Sport, the mirage drive would easily win.

Theres been stacks of discussion on the merits or otherwise of the mirage drive vs paddle yaks - the overwhelming concensus is that the mirage is a great innovation but paddles still have some advantages over it and it all depends upon how you rate the advantages and disadvantages and what you like. Spooled1 has done a great scenario to illustrate this elsewhere.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

If what we are talking about here which is the average yak fisho and fishing yak, and not the sleek fibreglass ocean going yaks, I would have to put my money on the mirage drive. Its a no brainer really. Lets put two similar kayaks together...........say a hobie quest and a hobie revo, one paddler, one peddle kayak. No matter how good the Quests paddle technique is, the paddler still needs to remove his paddle from the water in between strokes. The mirage drive never leaves the water, and is constantly moving so whilst the paddler has had a second or so in between strokes, the mirage drive has probably punchedx out 2 or 3 revolutions. Therefore in two similar kayaks, I conclude that the mirage drive will win hands down on speed and distance.


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## AndyC (Feb 29, 2008)

This pedal/paddle debate is so darned OLD!!!! Do we have to do this again?

Clearly, there are some situations where the pedal yaks have real advantages. And likewise, there are some where a Paddle yak is probably preferable. I think this is already accepted by both camps.

I think the real issue in this debate, namely safety, is the one that gets the least attention. I understand, for example, that a Hobie Outback is a total pig to paddle. Looking at its lines, I could easily believe it! As long as the Mirage Drive holds up, it will go anywhere my paddle yak will go, do it faster, with less physical effort and leave the yakker's hands free for casting...... pretty cool! While I don't know all the technical issues involved, I have been out in some pretty rough stuff with an Outback paddling companion. He and his boat handled the conditions extremely well and he wasn't so tired as me when we returned to shore.

But therein lies a problem. If your Mirage drive happens to fail when you are offshore and in difficult conditions (when it is most likely to be under maximum stress?) are you confidently able to say that you will just get out your trusty paddle and keep on? Can you reasonably expect to paddle back home if you are on a Hobie Outback, in an offshore breeze and a lumpy sea?

It seems to me, the logical answer is to have the best of both worlds. A boat eqipped with a Mirage Drive and that also paddles very well would surely be the ultimate choice. On the other hand, a shoebox that is equipped with a Mirage Drive would still be a shoe box ....... and a real danger to be caught in, when the drive fails.

I have heard it said, that Mirage Drives are great for people who have back or shoulder complaints and for whom paddling isn't really an option. And in a quiet creek, I might agree. Offshore or in open water is a totally different situation.

A mirage drive is a complex looking piece of gear ..... much moreso than a paddle. Whilst they might be very reliable, they do fail from time to time. The argument that a paddle might break strikes me as rather fanciful. The chances of a good quality paddle breaking and becoming uselesss would have to be extremely remote.

My conclusion then, is that pedal is NOT better than paddle. And paddle is NOT better than pedal. They are just two DIFFERENT approaches, each with undeniable benefits and drawbacks. The idea of Mirage Vs paddle makes no sense to me. Surely the two approaches are complimentary.

I'm not greedy ... but why can't I have both? And I wouldn't choose to paddle or pedal in a shoebox!

Cheers All,

AndyC


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## colzinho (Aug 6, 2007)

Where is The Stig when you need him.


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## troutfish (Jun 21, 2007)

probaly test driving that jet powered yak they had on Top Gear a while back :lol:


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## zipper (Feb 27, 2008)

or eating small children :shock:


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

Zoom zoom zoom....






Ohh no he didnt!!...He did...Baldy has just thrown down the gauntlet!!!! roy n HG style  :lol:

Naa na na naaaa na!!....we are faster :twisted: :lol:

Cheers
Baldy


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

Ok...lol...but I wanna see that guy in that yak haul in Marlin...lol. :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Cheers
Mike


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

whos faster????

at the end of the day it doesn't matter unless you want to race. either one will get you to your spot (eventually). the bonus is that you can troll on the way, and maybe even catch a fish or two. and i guess that's what we all like to do, so the argument is really not that relevant on AKFF.

ps. its a well known fact that red kayaks go faster than any others, so if you do want to go fast, get a RED ONE.


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

fishydude said:


> Ok...lol...but I wanna see that guy in that yak haul in Marlin...lol. :lol: :lol: :lol:
> Cheers
> Mike


hehe now I'd pay good money to see that!!

If it lifts out of the water like that going forward, I guess if it got towed by a marlin backwards it would dive to about 12feet and shimmy like a stumpjumper :twisted: :lol:

cheers
Baldy


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

PMSL...yak hydro foil and yak submarine in one. Btw...my yaks a red one!...lol. :lol: :lol: ;-)


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## HoldYourHour (May 6, 2008)

I asked a similar question (about general usability) here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17189&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
and got some fantastic responses that I would say are well worth revisiting. Spooled1 writes up a great scenario which shows that they are just different.

YMMV
m.

Mods: Perhaps this should be a section on the wiki "The Relative Pro's and Con's of Paddles and Peddles" with the best from AKFF's posts on the subject?


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## bugalugs (Mar 18, 2008)

I think it can be very hard to get fair dinkum, honest answers out of people as to how fast they paddle as well. Many will give answers based on what they think should be fastest..! Unless you could get the same person to paddle and pedal each yak it's a moot point really, if your paddling style is up to scratch it's going to be a different story to if it's not. etc. etc, etc. And in the end does it really matter, it's not like either one is going to be 20 knots faster anyway, maybe 1 or 2 kilometers better at the most.


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## Southerly (Apr 20, 2007)

I fish with Johnny a lot. He has a hobbie and I have a slow double sik which I fish solo.

At top speed the Hobbie wins hands down. At cruising speed we are pretty even. The hobbie is drier offshore and does not hull slap as much.

As fishing platforms:

The Hobbie is excellent for trolling and does not drift as quickly as the Dagger due to the mirage and rudder being in the water and less windage. As a SOT it has less payload easily accessable (less fishing junk can be carried) and is coulder in winter. Johnny has trouble fishing more than one line on the drift due to fouling on the rudder and drive, better line handling may reduce this risk.

The Dagger wins hands down in tight manvourability under warfes and in close squidding etc due to the paddle (even with the double). I can also fish multiple ines easily drifting. Trolling is a pain, especially setting up the rods and keeping some momentum going especially into a headwind or current.

In summary, I don't care who is faster. The Hobbie wins hands down for trolling all day and probably also for sprinting to schools on the surface as you can keep the momentum up and cast at the same time. The Dagger is better on the drift and using multiple lines and in places where manovarability is important, it also surfs reasonably well in small conditions and can be run up the rocks or beach on the way in. Therefore the answer is 'it depends'.

David


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## justcrusin (Oct 1, 2006)

OK guys I can put this all to rest, myself and flyrod raced across glenbawn damn almost a year an a half ago.

The race was a prowler 13 (ME) vs Revolution (ROD) from the dam wall to the camp ground around 1 - 1.5 k's. I am reasonable fit an have a good paddle style, Rod is a bit older than around 15-20years. The yaks are very similar in shape, size an weight.

Rod absoultely kicked my ass, with me paddling as hard as I could and maintaining that speed he was crusing next to me. Rod said he was working but I was busting a gut, when rod said are you trying yet with his arms on his head kicking back :lol: then he pulled away from me.

So there it is no ifs, no buts, no paddle strokes, the fins are better in pure speed stakes for a similar hull shape hands down.

Ok if your going to put an outback up against a mirage 580 sea kayak the mirage will win through its sleek and fast design but on reasonably comparable boats the fins win.

Cheers Dave

edit:


> Johnny has trouble fishing more than one line on the drift due to fouling on the rudder and drive, better line handling may reduce this risk.


Johhny just needs to adust his fishing style the only way you could continually foul the drive or rudder is if you keep spinning the yak around with slack lines.


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## Ado (Mar 31, 2008)

Southerly said:


> edit: Johnny has trouble fishing more than one line on the drift due to fouling on the rudder and drive, better line handling may reduce this risk.
> Johhny just needs to adust his fishing style the only way you could continually foul the drive or rudder is if you keep spinning the yak around with slack lines.


Me too, all the time


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

AndyC said:


> My conclusion then, is that pedal is NOT better than paddle. And paddle is NOT better than pedal. They are just two DIFFERENT approaches, each with undeniable benefits and drawbacks.


Agree with just about everything AndyC says.

I'd add (which I've done many times in the past), that you should never pedal to a place you're not willing to paddle back from.
I can point out 5 distinct circumstances where I've had a mirage drive failure at the 'far end' of my journey, and I've had no choice but to paddle back the whole way. This morning, about 10ks from home, was one of those circumstances.

That's not much of a chore for me - I enjoy my paddling, and would probably have paddled back anyway.

The mirage drive is a great bit of tech, and one that I enjoy having attached to the yak; but understand it's limitations, and factor it into any risk analysis you do.

From a speed perspective, I can paddle faster in burst, but my average speed over several hours, will be significantly higher with the mirage drive.

Red.


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## manta30 (Mar 15, 2008)

I can see definite advantages to using a mirage drive, but I find the thought of paddling and the possiblity of sailing my yak more back to basics and more fitting with the feeling of being a hunter gatherer in my kayak. :shock: Getting back to nature ;-)


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## mantabay (Mar 1, 2008)

Sorry to have started a Topic that has already been aired so much ! still ..... the posts are extremely interesting.

Would I be correct in :-

A true sea / ocean going style SOT with a Mirage drive would be good re hull shape etc etc.

You can't peddle a paddle Yak but you can paddle a peddle Yak.

Possible advantages of the drive as a dagger board when sailing . . . . . anyone ?

What ever does the job and gets us out amongst the fish and back safely is ultimately what its all about, still the variations on the theme and the future design possibilities are fascinating.

Cheers T.


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## justcrusin (Oct 1, 2006)

> You can't peddle a paddle Yak but you can paddle a peddle Yak


Yes but only because they don't have the mirage drive slot



> A true sea / ocean going style SOT with a Mirage drive would be good re hull shape etc etc.


Yes again but they don't make one.



> Possible advantages of the drive as a dagger board when sailing . . . . . anyone ?


I believe the adventure island has a dagger board slot on it, but That ine needs to be confirmed.

Cheers Dave


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

justcrusin32 said:


> I believe the adventure island has a dagger board slot on it, but That ine needs to be confirmed.


Yep - standard adventure has one too. 

Red.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Yep JC the Hobie Adventure Island has a dedicated dagger board slot and dagger board


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

bugalugs said:


> Unless you could get the same person to paddle and pedal each yak it's a moot point really, .


As a comparison I also wanted to compare my Prowler Elites speed against the Hobie Adventure and pedalled Paulys Adventure while up the Whitsundays. During the few hours I spent on the Adventure I gave it a good test and had a good straight undisturbed trip back to the mothership on sunset, a distance of probably 1.5-2km. This was done using standard fins (off JT's Outback) as Paulys Turbo pedals were through bolted and not long enough for my long chicken legs.

I found that the Adventure with standard fins, maintained about the same cruising pace as my Prowler. I was also pedalling alongside Rawprawn on his Prowler, Pauly on my Prowler and Redphoenix on his Adventure, and all yaks were chugging along at a similar pace without too much effort.

During this paddle home I tried to do a few short bursts of speed and I thought that the speed difference in the pedal craft was similar to if I'd put in some big /power paddle strokes on my Prowler. Not eye-blisteringly fast, but pretty quick for a yak. It was certainly much easier to maintain the steady cruise pace (and occasional bursts) with the pedals than it is with a paddle.

WIth ST or Turbo fins the Adventure would be a lot quicker. I've seen red in full bore mode with pedals stomping and arms swinging, trying to catch a school of kingfish and theres no way I could have kept up with him.

So, yes, the pedal drive system is quicker than paddles. But then a motors quicker than pedals, and a V8's quicker than a 2 cylinder Hyundai.

Therefore it all depends on how fast you REALLY want to go....


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## paulb (Nov 12, 2006)

If you've got 'rythmn' you can paddle and peddle simultaneously - for short bursts. Feels like your on some sort of excercise machine at the gym - I feel like a git, but its fun & fast.

I think the hull shapes / length start to effect your top speed vs effort & maybe the peddles allow a little more torque to push a less dynamic hull that little bit more.

Sometimes I wish the peddles didn't take up that extra space in the hull - but when I see a school of kingies breaking the surface & I can be chasing and casting at the same time, I wouldn't be without them. So for me, if I'm going in little/shallow creeks I leave the drive behind. If I'm going long distance or offshore - I use both.

So long as you have fun and catch the occasional fish then its all good


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## sbd (Aug 18, 2006)

paulb said:


> If you've got 'rythmn' you can paddle and peddle simultaneously


If you got 'rythmn' you need a speech pathologist. As for peddling simultaneously, should one sell sea shells by the sea shore?

Swish.


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## petanquedon (May 27, 2008)

Silly question can you paddle a Hobbie effectively?

Looking at the photos they seem very wide?


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

The outback is the only beefy one of the 3 main hobies..

Outback=89cm
Revolution=72cm
Adventure=70cm
Quest[the paddle version] 72cm

Compared with a few paddle yaks...

Prowlers=71cm
Swing=76
Profish=77cm
Moken=80cm
Stealth Superlite BFS=67cm
Stealth Express=70cm
X-Factor=84cm

Cheers
Baldy


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## solatree (May 30, 2008)

According to the Hobie website and catalogue, the Outback is 0.84 in the beam - same as


Baldy said:


> X-Factor=84cm


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

Ah ok, I got the figure from here http://www.hobiecatvictoria.com.au/kayaks.html

sorry about the confusion


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## Ozzybass (Jun 29, 2007)

For chrissakes, I can't stand it any more!! It's PEDAL not peddle!!!! Peddling is when you are selling something! If you use your legs, its pedalling! :lol: :lol:


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## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

I would admit that the Hobie pedal yaks have a number of advantages over traditional SOT yaks when it comes to fishing. That being said; I love paddling and would never consider switching to a Hobie unless forced to by something like a shoulder or back injury. Another big factor is load capacity. None of the Hobie pedal yaks has a load capacity over 400lbs. If they made one that was 15-16ft. with a load capacity over 550lbs I might be interested.



Ozzybass said:


> For chrissakes, I can't stand it any more!! It's PEDAL not peddle!!!! Peddling is when you are selling something! If you use your legs, its pedalling! :lol: :lol:


You know you have problems when somebody from Alabama is correcting your grammar. :lol: :lol: :lol: That ain't write. Git 'er done


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## sharmy (Mar 29, 2008)

I once put my mirage driver in to get the plastic cog teeth replaced as they had broken around the mechanisim of the chain, (has anyone seen a motorbike with plastic cogs rotating a metal chain, or the gearbox of a car with plastic cogs) (really dumb money saving concept by hobie) i had it it the open water for no more than 10 - 12 hrs before i broke new teeth of a brand new plastic cog. It occurs when you go over a wave and your resistance is reduced significantly as you get a little air (less resistance), and therefore your next stoke is snapped back quicker than anticipated putting excess force onto the teeth. Hobie warranty are quick to point out that it is customer abuse, so they wont accept liability for their manufacturing design. When you loose one tooth it makes the whole drive useless. The paddle is the far more reliable conventional method. As everyone suggests someone or Hobie need to compare an Adventure driver with an Adventure paddle over 1, 5, and 10km and post those results. Maybe Paul from the Sailing Scene may put that to the test.


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Sounds like you may need to adjust your cables a bit tighter sharmy. Even in a 'snapback' situation, if the pressure is evenly distributed over all cogs, you should be ok. Have a peek at the wiki for some info on drive maintenance - it might help a bit.

I like the idea of stronger cogs.. but dunno how metal cogs would stand up to the constant salt water immersion?

Red.


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## petanquedon (May 27, 2008)

Ozzybass said:


> For chrissakes, I can't stand it any more!! It's PEDAL not peddle!!!! Peddling is when you are selling something! If you use your legs, its pedalling! :lol: :lol:


I would think with all the bias and lack of impartial information peddling is exactly what is happening.

They are different and almost certainly each has its advantage in certain situations.

Apples and Steak isn't it?

:?


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

petanquedon said:


> I would think with all the bias and lack of impartial information peddling is exactly what is happening.


Interesting take on the thread Don. Not sure where you're coming from though; If I can summarise the contributions to the original question:
* Mantabay: How does mirage and paddle compare speed-wise, over distance and speed.
* Bazzoo (a long time paddler): Mirage drive would win.
* BigD: There's more to it; a good paddler would make an interesting race out of it.
* Astro: Speed isn't everything; using your hands is ... handy.
* Ado: Hobies certainly have the torque, even if it's only useful as a cute advertising gimmick.
* FishyDude: Anything that can push my barge outback along at a reasonable pace, must be allright.. but the drive has it's place.
<pet/legacy q&A session>
* Breambo: Speed isn't everthing: reliability!
* Solatree: There's more to it.. Depends on the kayak & paddler.
* Keljad (paddler): Mirage drive (caveat: on an average fishing kayak)
* AndyC: neither is better - each is different.
* DaveyG: Fast? Who cares?
* bugalugs: Apples and apples, or the stats aren't much good.
* Southerly (paddler): Mirage beats mine in speed, but not in manoeuvrability. Who cares which is faster though?
* Dave (paddler): Rod in an outback, kicked my arse.
* Red: Paddle faster in burst, average speed is faster with the pedals. Beware of maintenance.
* DaveyG (paddler): speed isn't everything, but the mirage is faster.

I note that the majority of people who have stated that the mirage drive is actually faster, are paddlers (I've marked them above for you). Most responses (including owners of the yaks in question) have consistently downplayed speed, highlighted other factors that they have thought are more important - whether these are positive or negative (maintainability, manoeuvrability, the ability to use your hands, etc).

I'm at a bit of a loss to find any backing for "the lack of impartial information", or any bias, other than a kayak owners natural love of their own current kayak, whatever that happens to be. I'm happy to be proven wrong though, if you can provide evidence to the contrary. I'd just hate to see the respondents to this thread, who have taken the time to answer a question, have their responses called into question without some sort of evidential backing (again, other than the normal kayak owners enthusiasm for their yak).

Red.


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## Shufoy (May 28, 2008)

These "Hobie V's The Rest of the World" debates are getting so old. Seems every forum has a division between Hobies and not Hobies, with some more nazi than others. It get's tiring when your perusing of Kayak fishing forums involves so many posts, with the same old debate. These posts end up going round in circles, with the same info being thrown back and forth, untill it dies in the bowells of old forum topics, only to be ressurected in a new post a week later. And disheartening to see a great post, on a non-related topic dragged into this age old argument.

We are all kayak fishers, we have the same goals on the water, we all love what we do. Both peddles and paddles have pro's and con's. People choose a kayak like a car, they figure what best suits them, throw in a bit of individual flair, and purchase there ride.

If you don't own a Hobie, or intend on buying one, why do you care how they perform? If you do, enjoy it, don't jump to it's defence every time a non-hobie owner pokes a jibe at them.

I realise my rant will probably have zero effect on this continuous and fruitless debate, tho deep down inside, a small piece of me feels just a tiny bit better.


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## petanquedon (May 27, 2008)

I wasn't making a statement about any particular posts but clearly people will be biased by their personal experiences.

People planning to make a decision really need to confirm any information independently.

What is great for one person may be unsuitable for another.

The world as I see it may be different to how other people see the world.

Perhaps the only unbiased advice would be from people who don't care but it seems most people have some sort of opinion on this.

There seems to be people who are happy to pay for a mirage drive and it seems there are people who are not.

What is good and constitutes value depends on a lot of things these things would vary with the individual.

For flat, snag free water more than 1M deep the mirage drive if you have strong legs and don't mind the extra expense looks very good.

Logically there are a lot of people enjoying paddle yaks that don't intend to change.

Are you better to spend you money on a mirage drive or a sail?

Or a fancy fishing rod?

That is a completely different question ;-)


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

petanquedon said:


> I wasn't making a statement about any particular posts but clearly people will be biased by their personal experiences.


Fair call mate - thanks for that.



> Perhaps the only unbiased advice would be from people who don't care but it seems most people have some sort of opinion on this.


My guess is that that those without personal experience to draw from, or that are ambivalent about the subject material, probably wouldn't have taken the time to post. 

Red.


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## AndyC (Feb 29, 2008)

Hey, I have an idea!!! The heading of this thread is 'Mirage Drive versus Paddling' ...... so its a pretty fair bet what the thread is going to be about, eh?

So those folks who are so weary of the 'debate' could probably avoid a great deal of stress by simply NOT READING THE THREAD! They have, apparently, already read it a hundred times before and so there is nothing to gain except stomache acid.

That would leave the thread (and the discussion) available to those of us who actually find the subject matter interesting or who perhaps have a helpful point of view. A person who is considering the purchase of a new yak reads posts on AKFF and hopefully finds useful information to assist their purchasing decision. I'd like to think those people would be glad of a thread of this kind.

The logical extension of the idea that we shouldn't be having this discussion (again!) is that noone should voice an opinion on any yak subject which might be offensive or annoying to some other member ... or that might be contentious. So I can't say that Blain's Hobie is faster than my Prowler for fear of upsetting the Prowler owners? Or I can't say that I really like the layout and lines of the Viking Profish, more than my Prowler ... for the same reason.

I'd have thought that a major facet of AKFF's value as a forum is that it provides a vehicle for the sharing of ideas and opinions. Even the ones that might be repetitive or annoying.

Personally, I have found this thread far more interesting than I expected. I have been impressed by what I judged to be a logical and non-emotional exploration of a subject that is of potential interest to most of us. I think this thread is a credit to the spirit of AKFF. Congrats to all who have participated in a constructive way.

Cheers all,

AndyC


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## Breambo (Apr 19, 2006)

I may of said that mirage may be faster, going with general concensus but in reality I would leave most mirages in my wake :twisted:


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Breambo said:


> I may of said that mirage may be faster, going with general concensus but in reality I would leave most mirages in my wake :twisted:


It doesn't count if you've got four snapper forming the yak equivalent of a dog sled team Brett. 

Red.


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## Breambo (Apr 19, 2006)

Aha, what about sea turtles :lol:


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## Shufoy (May 28, 2008)

Oh Andy calm yourself down. From your previous post in this very thread i see your opinion is not that different from my own



> This pedal/paddle debate is so darned OLD!!!! Do we have to do this again?


 Andy C

I agree with your points regarding the interest of this topic to those potential buyers, and the info gathered from it. But these threads invariably cover everything by page 3, and drag on over the same arguments, and fly drastically off topic until it ends up being a to and fro between one or two people, which in some cases, turns nasty. This topic has been covered in many hundreds of threads, over every kayak forum in existence, and there is no shortage of information out there for people genuinely interested in buying Hobies. I certainly in no way implied in my rant that we aren't allowed to make constructive criticism of other types, or styles of kayak. 
I apologize if you, or others take offense to my opinion, but thats life. Opinions are free, and as you have said, its great how we are able to voice them here.



> We are all kayak fishers, we have the same goals on the water, we all love what we do. Both peddles and paddles have pro's and con's. People choose a kayak like a car, they figure what best suits them, throw in a bit of individual flair, and purchase there ride.


 Shufoy

That quote from my post contains the sum of my feelings on this matter, the rest is filler. Manipulate and extrapolate it as you wish. The fact that this "debate" has been done over and over, and no clear answer will probably ever be achieved is beyond question. The fact that i highlighted this, doesn't make me a sinner.


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

Ahh, reminds me of my first days on AKFF,

Minimal Hobies, maximum bias... I took a step back from Mirage Drive systems and bought a paddle yak. Kind of an odd way to go about things but love both systems equally, even though I tend to favour my paddle these days ( If I had an Adventure, maybe not I guess ). I used to whinge about how much water would be taken on board and cringed at comments about lack of freeboard on my Outfitter ( I was loading the rear way too much ).

I seem to be able to pedal a lot longer than I can paddle, but this, for me anyway, comes down to fluid motion.


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

gra said:


> I don't get any more chicks on the Hobie


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## Shufoy (May 28, 2008)

> and I don't get any more chicks on the Hobie


Hmm, that's strange, what colours your's?


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## AndyC (Feb 29, 2008)

Awwww Come on Shufoy, I thought i had that covered with


> Personally, I have found this thread far more interesting than I expected. I have been impressed by what I judged to be a logical and non-emotional exploration of a subject that is of potential interest to most of us.


Seriously, its all good Mate. I know what you were saying and I too half expected the thread to deteriorate into some kind of slinging match. But it didn't. I thought it was good.

BTW, it would take more than a few highly paid (and disinterested) Sheilas to make Hobie start to look sexy!! 

Cheers,

AndyC


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## Shufoy (May 28, 2008)

I know what you're saying Andy, and most forums are a slinging match by page 3. It's just one of those topics. The car comparison was fairly accurate, the old Holden V's Ford debate, but in kayaks. No one ever wins, no one is right or wrong, the satisfaction comes from who can post and convince themselves that there point sounds the most logical.

Personally anything with a flipper is sexy!


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Shufoy said:


> Personally anything with a flipper is sexy!


From the folder on Shufoy's computer, that he keeps hidden when kids are around:











Red.


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## Shufoy (May 28, 2008)

Hmmm, i've done worse......


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

paffoh said:


> gra said:
> 
> 
> > I don't get any more chicks on the Hobie


good one paff.. I'd forgotten about that photo. what a great weekend that was! :lol: :lol: Go Team White!


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## petanquedon (May 27, 2008)

Well there are some really fast mirages out there.

But how do you fish from them"?


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

OK, as with most threads there comes a time where the relevant contributions have finished and we start wandering off topic. As such I'll now lock this thread as it seems that the original question has well and truly been answered and we're now starting to deviate off topic.

Happy paddling/pedalling!


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