# The Dodgy Shoulder Thread (Formerly "Frozen Shoulder....)



## kayakone

Left hand or right hand. Either way, just be thankful you can't go carp fishing.


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## scater

Bad news Brad, get it sorted in time for DI eh?


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## ArWeTherYet

Bugger! That dam manual labour will get you every time.

Acupuncture and Osteopath (Mine does both) and the exercises the same bloke told me to do is all that keeps me going. That and a capsule of Curcumin and BioPerine before bed and regular Epson salts baths . Doctors/Physio/chiropractors/pills never did me much good.

Mind you I have never been diagnosed with anything, so what would I know, good luck with it.


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## ArWeTherYet

Oh and I pay for extras insurance cover, which help pay for Physios/chiropractors/osteopaths etc. also optical and dental. Worth it if you have a family.
I think you can get free physio through the hospital, they offered that to me when I broke my arm, not that I went, had to get back to work.


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## RhubarbTheYeti

You have my sympathy Indie.
The tendonitis in my left elbow isn't improving at all - basically because the only cure is rest and I just can't stop fishing during my six months a year in Tas and my six months work in SA doesn't give it a break either. Both casting and fighting all those fish I catch keep aggravating it  If only I was a less successful fiherman ;-) 
Luckily when I return to SA in July for work this year I have been able to arrange contracts that are left arm friendly  
On the down side, the building of my solid annex on the van in Tas has just started and I'm the builder's labourer


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## gbc

Not good news indie dog. I have never heard of a register, but it would be nice.
If you don't have a good one already, I can highly recommend cameron lillycrap Physio on wynnum rd at hawthorne. Crapper is an ex red/wallaby and knows a thing or two about buggered shoulders. There aren't many his equal on our side of town. Good luck with it all.


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## paulo

I feel your pain Brad. Bursitis in the hip has had me on the bench after a pushbike fall late January. Steroids seem to be working after 3 weeks. Im also taking silica liquid. A mate swears it cleared up his shoulder from surgery stage in 6 months. He used no other treatment and is back fast bowling every weekend in grade cricket and going strong 4 years later.

Pedalling the kayak brought the pain for days afterwards and I could only lie on my back on the floor. Until a week or so ago I could only walk 100m before the nerve compression kicked in. The upside is I could go fishing again once I knew what it was. Im struggling to adjust to a paddle only but Im out there.... getting flogged in the race to the boils. 

You're on the other side of the fence to me. Might be time to try pedals?


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## kayakone

Go Paul. Have you tried whiskey?


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## anselmo

paulo said:


> I feel your pain Brad. Bursitis in the hip has had me on the bench after a pushbike fall late January. Steroids seem to be working after 3 weeks. Im also taking silica liquid. A mate swears it cleared up his shoulder from surgery stage in 6 months. He used no other treatment and is back fast bowling every weekend in grade cricket and going strong 4 years later.
> 
> Pedalling the kayak brought the pain for days afterwards and I could only lie on my back on the floor. Until a week or so ago I could only walk 100m before the nerve compression kicked in. The upside is I could go fishing again once I knew what it was. Im struggling to adjust to a paddle only but Im out there.... getting flogged in the race to the boils.
> 
> You're on the other side of the fence to me. Might be time to try pedals?


2 of you could swap yaks


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## Spankster

Ya poor bloke... I know what you're going thru mate! Acute tendonitis in the right elbow (ongoing treatment since last Sept)... bursitis/tendonitis in the right shoulder... starting to get bad enough that it hurts holding onto a steering wheel at times. Physio has given me some excercises for the shoulder... hopefully they'll help with the pain.


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## Junglefisher

indiedog said:


> There's obvious conflict between what the doctor says and what the physio told me to do. The doc' gave me exercises to do last time including putting my arm up against a wall (facing the wall) and walking the hand up as high as I could get it, then leaning in. To say this hurt is a gross understatement. The physio told me to stop that one and do something different (like a mini push up against the wall while holding my shoulder blades apart). The doc' says I need to work through the pain to keep things open. I'll do some more research on this in the coming days but I'll err on the doc's side this time. (Grinz, need your input here).
> e page.


I'd errr on the side of the Physio personally.
Most docs don't get a lot of training or experience in this sort of thing, a sports physio doesn't do much else.


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## RhubarbTheYeti

indiedog said:


> But not sure that fishing is a compulsory activity?? It's close but health is better.


It might not be compulsory but when I have a river chock full of bream only 800m down the road I find it impossible to resist the temptation to go and annoy them at every opportunity - ie. most days, sometimes twice a day


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## spork

Have had tendonitis in left elbow since December. Slowly getting better, but it's a bugger of a thing.
Bloody manual labour. 

Yeti - Are you right handed? Try putting the reel handle on the left side. Winding is easier on the arm than the rodwork. It feels odd at first, but after a few days it becomes natural, and then casting and swapping hands before you wind feels weird.


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## RhubarbTheYeti

spork said:


> Yeti - Are you right handed? Try putting the reel handle on the left side. Winding is easier on the arm than the rodwork. It feels odd at first, but after a few days it becomes natural, and then casting and swapping hands before you wind feels weird.


Yep, right handed but.... many years ago I snapped off the ends of my arm bones on the left, just above the wrist, playing footy at school. Have had a series of ops on it and its never been the same since. The sort of rotational movement involved in winding is bound to upset that too


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## Marty75

All the best with the recovery Brad. Every time I watch RPA (on now) just makes me realise how important our health is.

Good luck mate

Marty


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## grinner

Hay brad,

yes they are a bit of an accumulation injury (like elbows). lots and lots of little microtears which the body tries to heal but never quite gets on top of.
so , over many years of slowly ramping up the debt in the tendons, they suddenly plead for bankruptcy and they don't get better overnite.
if its been slowly getting damaged over a couple of years it may take that long to completely re heal.

part of the healing is done through the repair networks and the "inflamatory' cells.
sort of like the healing under a scab is all pink and blood engorged and warm and active.

so Anti inflamatories (voltaren, Naprosyn, bruffen), just mop up the chemicals in this active area and help reduce the pain.

cortisone mops up everything. it shuts down inflammation (helps with pain) but the inflammation is part of the healing process. too much cortisone and the healing occurs in a weak floppy fashion.

if the inflammatory cells overwhelm the area, you get a sort of goopy stuff that sets like waek scar and this is the cause of a "frozen" shoulder. the pain often ceases but so does movement.
this often gives the shoulder a chance to rest and surprisingly , some time down the track, the shoulder "reboots" itself and your often back to good.

Nature heals most of these things with time (often a good deal of time). doctors, physios, pharmacists, naturopaths, osteopaths just take the credit.

the good thing is that unlike weight bearing joints (knees and hips) shoulders generally come good some time in the future. anyone who tells you exactly when that will be is being a little untruthful


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## Bogey

Hi Brad
Had "Frozen shoulder" for best part of 15 months and started doing gentle (5 kg) weights at home.
Lying on back on coffee table, on front , sitting up for curls, standing for above head stuff etc
and anything else I could think of - repeats of each exercise at least 15 per arm slowly.
Am now 90% recovered - am pretty sure that the exercises helped - improvement quite quickly.
Was told that strengthening the muscles around the shoulder takes strain away from problem area.
Really hope this helps in some way - Frozen shoulder is a pain in the ass ( or shoulder really) 
Cheers Mark.


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## Safa

Hey Brad I feel your pain mate ,best advise is rest mate some light theraband exercises and the rest is in your hands ,I did not pick up a paddle for about 8 months ,driving was a problem aswell , I wore my arm in a sling as much as possible in the rest position ,mine is still not 100 % but now if it's feeling a bit tendor I don't get out much for a paddle !the funny thing is it always feels better after a light paddle when I don't have big swell etc to power through so there is light at the end of the tunnel matel it's just not that bright at the moment!mine shoulder did not get better gradually it's was a matter of turning big corners all of a sudden and shit this feels good today !then static for awhile and bang another leap forward it's much better !but still take it easy when when you think it's good . ;-)


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## Barrabundy

.


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## paulo

tens machines are only $50 at aldi atm. It takes the focus off that stabbing pain.


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## SharkNett

My GP put me on a register for chronic problems with my neck that allowed me to claim a certain number of osteopathic treatments over a 3 month period from Medicare. Had to provide the GP with what treatment I get and the name of the osteopath I go to. After the 3 months I had to go back to the GP to be reassessed & get it renewed. Can't remember how much of the fees were covered.
You should also take the completed form to the care provider. Some will claim from medicare directly, others will want you to pay up front & claim yourself. Mine was able to claim through the HICAPS system.


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## paulo

indiedog said:


> paulo said:
> 
> 
> 
> tens machines are only $50 at aldi atm. It takes the focus off that stabbing pain.
> 
> 
> 
> Paulo, do tens machines mainly work on muscle stimulation? That is, will it actually do anything beneficial for my shoulder joint? No doubt taking my mind of it will be beneficial as you suggest.
Click to expand...

They take the focus off the pain when its really stabbing you but not sure if it contributes to the healing process. Apparently it overrides or blocks the pain. Not sure if its even clinically proven to do anything but it does seem to do the job for me.
I can also recommended the resistance bands. Even 10 mins on them seems to help if my shoulder is also giving me curry. About $20 for a set on ebay.
I googled this:_
There are two main methods that a TENS machine uses to provide you with pain relief. 
◾Pain Gating 
◾Endorphin Release

Pain Gating

A TENS machine produces millions of tiny electrical impulses, which enter your body via electrodes placed on the skin near or over the painful region. These fast electrical impulses override the slower pain impulses and travel quickly along your nerves to your spinal cord and up to your brain.

Your brain is immediately bombarded by millions of pleasant electrical impulses. Your pain signals continue to be sent to your brain but travel along much slower (smaller diameter) nerve fibres. Since your brain can only interpret a limited amount of information, the pain signals are easily outnumbered by the pleasant high-speed TENS stimulation.
_


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## gbc

I'll second the tens machine. They are modern technologies attempt at mimicking acupuncture. Not as good as a decent dart thrower - by the way indie, Physio and acupuncture is awesome - but as stated do definitely have an effect. I was a hairs breadth away from double laminectomy 20 years back and a spinal surgeon (family friend) suggested I search the world for help before signing up for surgery. I'm still managing without surgery, but I've spent a fair amount of time and money on crap that doesn't work.


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## anselmo

paulo said:


> indiedog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paulo said:
> 
> 
> 
> tens machines are only $50 at aldi atm. It takes the focus off that stabbing pain.
> 
> 
> 
> Paulo, do tens machines mainly work on muscle stimulation? That is, will it actually do anything beneficial for my shoulder joint? No doubt taking my mind of it will be beneficial as you suggest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They take the focus off the pain when its really stabbing you but not sure if it contributes to the healing process. Apparently it overrides or blocks the pain. Not sure if its even clinically proven to do anything but it does seem to do the job for me.
> I can also recommended the resistance bands. Even 10 mins on them seems to help if my shoulder is also giving me curry. About $20 for a set on ebay.
> I googled this:_
> There are three main methods that a TENS machine uses to provide you with pain relief.
> ◾Pain Gating
> ◾Endorphin Release
> ◾Placebo Effect
> 
> Pain Gating
> 
> A TENS machine produces millions of tiny electrical impulses, which enter your body via electrodes placed on the skin near or over the painful region. These fast electrical impulses override the slower pain impulses and travel quickly along your nerves to your spinal cord and up to your brain.
> 
> Your brain is immediately bombarded by millions of pleasant electrical impulses. Your pain signals continue to be sent to your brain but travel along much slower (smaller diameter) nerve fibres. Since your brain can only interpret a limited amount of information, the pain signals are easily outnumbered by the pleasant high-speed TENS stimulation.
> _
Click to expand...

FIFY with a possible alternative view ;-)


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## Beekeeper

In the last years of my 21 years in the RAAF, my right shoulder began hurting in the joint&#8230; by the time I went to Medical about it, the surrounding muscles were going out in sympathy. I explained to the Officer that my shoulder joint was giving me hell, and he promptly told me that it was muscular. To prove it, he prodded each of the offending muscles, asking me each time did it hurt. As all my answers were positive, he very smugly re-affirmed his original diagnosis, that it was muscular. Despite my repeated statement that the original pain came from the joint, he looked down his nose at me, ignored my pleas, and again stated, "muscular!" So then about 5/6 weeks of everyday physiotherapy followed with negative results. The Physio finally concluded that she was not doing any good, and I readily agreed, so she sent me back to the doctor.

I asked him would he allow the RAAF to pay for me to see the local bloke who was reported to do magic on the footballers of the district for their problems. He answered in the negative, to which I responded, "You'd pay for a Physio to work on me for all that time and do me no good, but you won't allow me to see the local bloke with a great reputation for fixing such injuries?" "That's right, if you want to see him, you'll have to pay for it yourself." So I did. In three visits, all the surrounding muscles were toned up and felt good (no pain), but he told me that he couldn't do anything with the joint. He advised me to go back to Medical and ask to see a specialist.

I did this, showed the (good?) doctor that all my muscles were OK, that the joint was indeed the problem, and could he refer me to a specialist. He did this, and that began some real painful times.

The specialist told me to raise my arm, which I couldn't do, so he raised it for me&#8230; pain! "You've got a frozen shoulder, my boy," he said. "When your arm raised, the shoulder came with it&#8230; it should stay still and the arm rotate within." "What now?" says I. "We'll have to unfreeze it." That sounded like pain to me and I told him. There's no way out of it, and when I asked him could it be done under anesthetic, he said it could, but it always comes back. The only permanent fix is through the pain.

He instructed me to go home, attach a pulley to the roof in the garage, run a 3/8" rope through it, attach it to my right hand, loop the other end and place my hand in the loop. Then reef down on the left hand. Do that until all movement returns to the shoulder. When that's finished, find every thing that hurts the joint and keep on hurting it until there's no pain. I did all this, and Helen would not stay in the garage while I was torturing myself, tears pouring from me, knowing that the only way to get rid of the cause of this pain was to keep hurting myself.

I even took up a golf-stick and began knocking off all the daisies in the back yard, till that particular part of the pain went... even went down to the squash court and at first couldn't hit the ball to the front wall. Lots of pain later, I began playing again, and the worst shot to hit was pulling a back-hand shot out of the back corner... but, after much pain and perseverance, began playing the game again without pain.

Time dragged on (doesn't it when you're enjoying yourself) and finally there was no pain left, but when lying face up on the floor with my hands extended (in the hands up position), I couldn't put my right hand on the floor&#8230; it just wouldn't reach the floor, but stopped about nine inches above it. After all the pain I'd been through, I wasn't really bothered about that&#8230; the specialist had written me off his books as cured, and I had almost full movement of that limb.

I happened to meet a fellow who cleared up that problem for me later on, but most people don't believe me when I explain that one, so I won't test your belief... just won't tell you.

There is also a possible link between frozen shoulder and Ross River Fever... will tell about that if anyone's interested.

However, Brad... you could possibly have more than frozen shoulder... you wrote about bursitis... I know nothing about that... could perhaps complicate matters if you attempt my method of unfreezing shoulders.

With much sympathy... Jimbo


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## dru

grinner said:


> Hay brad,
> 
> yes they are a bit of an accumulation injury (like elbows). lots and lots of little microtears which the body tries to heal but never quite gets on top of.
> so , over many years of slowly ramping up the debt in the tendons, they suddenly plead for bankruptcy and they don't get better overnite.
> if its been slowly getting damaged over a couple of years it may take that long to completely re heal.
> 
> part of the healing is done through the repair networks and the "inflamatory' cells.
> sort of like the healing under a scab is all pink and blood engorged and warm and active.
> 
> so Anti inflamatories (voltaren, Naprosyn, bruffen), just mop up the chemicals in this active area and help reduce the pain.
> 
> cortisone mops up everything. it shuts down inflammation (helps with pain) but the inflammation is part of the healing process. too much cortisone and the healing occurs in a weak floppy fashion.
> 
> if the inflammatory cells overwhelm the area, you get a sort of goopy stuff that sets like waek scar and this is the cause of a "frozen" shoulder. the pain often ceases but so does movement.
> this often gives the shoulder a chance to rest and surprisingly , some time down the track, the shoulder "reboots" itself and your often back to good.
> 
> Nature heals most of these things with time (often a good deal of time). doctors, physios, pharmacists, naturopaths, osteopaths just take the credit.
> 
> the good thing is that unlike weight bearing joints (knees and hips) shoulders generally come good some time in the future. anyone who tells you exactly when that will be is being a little untruthful


Pete, care to explain the difference between rotator cuff and bursitis?


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## Robbo

Beekeeper said:


> In the last years of my 21 years in the RAAF, my right shoulder began hurting in the joint&#8230; by the time I went to Medical about it, the surrounding muscles were going out in sympathy. I explained to the Officer that my shoulder joint was giving me hell, and he promptly told me that it was muscular. To prove it, he prodded each of the offending muscles, asking me each time did it hurt. As all my answers were positive, he very smugly re-affirmed his original diagnosis, that it was muscular. Despite my repeated statement that the original pain came from the joint, he looked down his nose at me, ignored my pleas, and again stated, "muscular!" So then about 5/6 weeks of everyday physiotherapy followed with negative results. The Physio finally concluded that she was not doing any good, and I readily agreed, so she sent me back to the doctor.
> 
> I asked him would he allow the RAAF to pay for me to see the local bloke who was reported to do magic on the footballers of the district for their problems. He answered in the negative, to which I responded, "You'd pay for a Physio to work on me for all that time and do me no good, but you won't allow me to see the local bloke with a great reputation for fixing such injuries?" "That's right, if you want to see him, you'll have to pay for it yourself." So I did. In three visits, all the surrounding muscles were toned up and felt good (no pain), but he told me that he couldn't do anything with the joint. He advised me to go back to Medical and ask to see a specialist.
> 
> I did this, showed the (good?) doctor that all my muscles were OK, that the joint was indeed the problem, and could he refer me to a specialist. He did this, and that began some real painful times.
> 
> The specialist told me to raise my arm, which I couldn't do, so he raised it for me&#8230; pain! "You've got a frozen shoulder, my boy," he said. "When your arm raised, the shoulder came with it&#8230; it should stay still and the arm rotate within." "What now?" says I. "We'll have to unfreeze it." That sounded like pain to me and I told him. There's no way out of it, and when I asked him could it be done under anesthetic, he said it could, but it always comes back. The only permanent fix is through the pain.
> 
> He instructed me to go home, attach a pulley to the roof in the garage, run a 3/8" rope through it, attach it to my right hand, loop the other end and place my hand in the loop. Then reef down on the left hand. Do that until all movement returns to the shoulder. When that's finished, find every thing that hurts the joint and keep on hurting it until there's no pain. I did all this, and Helen would not stay in the garage while I was torturing myself, tears pouring from me, knowing that the only way to get rid of the cause of this pain was to keep hurting myself.
> 
> I even took up a golf-stick and began knocking off all the daisies in the back yard, till that particular part of the pain went... even went down to the squash court and at first couldn't hit the ball to the front wall. Lots of pain later, I began playing again, and the worst shot to hit was pulling a back-hand shot out of the back corner... but, after much pain and perseverance, began playing the game again without pain.
> 
> Time dragged on (doesn't it when you're enjoying yourself) and finally there was no pain left, but when lying face up on the floor with my hands extended (in the hands up position), I couldn't put my right hand on the floor&#8230; it just wouldn't reach the floor, but stopped about nine inches above it. After all the pain I'd been through, I wasn't really bothered about that&#8230; the specialist had written me off his books as cured, and I had almost full movement of that limb.
> 
> *I happened to meet a fellow who cleared up that problem for me later on, but most people don't believe me when I explain that one, so I won't test your belief... just won't tell you.
> *
> There is also a possible link between frozen shoulder and Ross River Fever... will tell about that if anyone's interested.
> 
> However, Brad... you could possibly have more than frozen shoulder... you wrote about bursitis... I know nothing about that... could perhaps complicate matters if you attempt my method of unfreezing shoulders.
> 
> With much sympathy... Jimbo


Please do tell....I find these "miracle" stories are always intriguing....


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## ArWeTherYet

liam8227 said:


> Brad I have had a heap of issues with my back and shoulders over the years. The one thing that has worked really well for me is weight training. Last year I would get a popping sensation in my right shoulder. I shifted my training to include specifically targeting the area and the popping sensation is now very rare.
> 
> As we age weight training is something that is very important for overall health. Strengthens muscles, helps sleep, keeps bones dense amongst other things.
> 
> My gym membership costs me less per week than coffee and is better for me!


Lifting heavy things also helps build up testosterone, you need that unless you want to get to middle age and lose your arse, gain a gut and not be able to get it up any more or at least not have the energy to do so.
BTW diggings really good excessive (great for the shoulder) and I always carry a spare shovel. ;-)


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## scater

That's a real bugger Brad, sorry to hear it.


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## Dodge

A tough break Brad, but you have plenty of years left if you let recover properly, so try and be patient with the paddling until given the all clear.


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## Safa

Safa said:


> Hey Brad I feel your pain mate ,best advise is rest mate some light theraband exercises and the rest is in your hands ,I did not pick up a paddle for about 8 months ,driving was a problem aswell , I wore my arm in a sling as much as possible in the rest position ,mine is still not 100 % but now if it's feeling a bit tendor I don't get out much for a paddle !the funny thing is it always feels better after a light paddle when I don't have big swell etc to power through so there is light at the end of the tunnel matel it's just not that bright at the moment!mine shoulder did not get better gradually it's was a matter of turning big corners all of a sudden and shit this feels good today !then static for awhile and bang another leap forward it's much better !but still take it easy when when you think it's good . ;-)


Yip mate seems like a long rest will do you good so do it!


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## dru

Hang in there Brad.


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## Beekeeper

Robbo said:


> Please do tell....I find these "miracle" stories are always intriguing....


Robbo... due to a fellow RAAF worker having improved his eye-sight markedly by attendance at a seminar, subsequent inquiries found me attending a "Senses Awarement" seminar in Canberra... I wanted to arrest the deterioration of my eye-sight as well.

Whilst at the seminar, we were asked if we had any body ailments, and one woman said that she had frozen shoulder. I smiled, as I knew what the future held for her.

The organizer picked me up on it and inquired why I would smile at someone else's very real problem. I answered that I'd just gone through the pains of curing myself of just that complaint. "Were you totally cured of it?" was the next question, and I told him that only one little problem remained. He asked me to show him, and I lay on the floor, and showed him that my shoulder joint would not allow my hand to reach the floor.

He said that he could probably fix that, and could he manipulate my shoulder regions to help. Of course I said yes, and he got me to bend forward towards him, explaining all the while what he was up to, and searched and probed his fingers between the shoulder muscles and the collar-bone, finally finding and probing at the target spot.

When he finished, he asked me to try touching the floor with the hand again. Would you believe, my hand touched the floor for the first time in several months. We were all pleased with that result, but the next morning the first thing I tried was just that, again. My hand stopped where it used to before he touched my shoulder.

As soon as he saw me, before the meeting had actually begun again, he quizzed me as to how it was. When I told him, he asked me was I sore where he had worked, and I said I was.

Later at the meeting, he arranged six blokes to line up beside me, we all linked hands with me on the left and them spread to the right. He worked on the bloke furthest from me, then reckoned that I should be fixed this time.

Now, I'm about the biggest skeptic you'll ever meet when it comes to being subjected to mumbo-jumbo, and I knew that he couldn't fix me by doing whatever it was he did to that bloke six away from me.

But, because I knew that my hand was going to stop nine inches from the floor, my hand hit the ground with such a force when nothing stopped it, I was stunned!

My shoulder has been OK ever since!

To this day I can only surmise that he worked on the other fellow's shoulder muscles as he did to mine the day before. I was so skeptical about the mumbo-jumbo that I didn't even look at what he did.

Ask me am I a believer&#8230; Man&#8230; I believe!!!

Now, Robbo... and anybody else who might have read it... I'm not asking you to believe the above, but it is the absolute truth!

The eye-exercises also arrested the deterioration of my eye-sight as well. The weekend seminar was well worth the money spent.

The fellow's name is

Brendan O'Hara
Kinesiologist
370 South Road
Moorabbin 3189
Ph: (03) 9532 3500

or

689 Point Nepean Road
McCrae, 3938 
Ph: (03) 5982 1188

The last time I saw him was at least ten years ago at his practice in Moorabbin... I don't know if he still practices.

Cheers, Jimbo


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## Bretto

Dredging up this thread again. After pinching a nerve in my back last week walking onto the volleyball court I figured it was about time I pool together all my aches and pains and visit a doctor.

After dealing with the back issue, attention turned to my shoulder/elbow issues. I've had rotator cuff pain on and off for about 6 years. Earlier this year I developed a new pain in a different part of the shoulder.

After running some tests the doctor has come to the preliminary conclusion that the pain could relate to calcification of the tendons at the shoulder joint (I'm organising scans shortly).

Has anyone here had to deal with a tendon calcification issue before? I'm not looking forward to an extended break from sport and fishing.


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## Bretto

kraley said:


> Bretto said:
> 
> 
> 
> After running some tests the doctor has come to the preliminary conclusion that the pain could relate to calcification of the tendons at the shoulder joint (I'm organising scans shortly).
> 
> Has anyone here had to deal with a tendon calcification issue before? I'm not looking forward to an extended break from sport and fishing.
> 
> 
> 
> I had this about 15 years ago and after finding the right doctor - was able to resolve it really quickly - but finding that guy took a while. I would try to work with someone that specialises in sports medicine.
> 
> I was in real pain for about 6 weeks - and after the skilled use of cortisone and some cleaning of the calcification I was pretty much instantly pain-free without major surgery. No rehab time, either. Once the calcium crystal is removed from irritating the tendon you are pretty much back to normal.
> 
> I would note that my GP was completely useless here - they don't know much about this kind of stuff. Was super glad I found someone that knew what they were doing.
Click to expand...

Cheers Kraley

At least there is the potential for a fast outcome in the right circumstances.

Playing high end volleyball, I've had no shortage of specialist's being recommended from other players. I've been quite surprised how many people have had to undergo reconstructive shoulder surgery. I've been referred to a guy not that far away from where I live who specialises in shoulders. Apparently he's not a slice-em and dice-em doctor. It'll be interesting to see what he has to say.


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## Bretto

indiedog said:


> Brett, the guy who did my concrete end of last year had calcification also. He went to the guy who's been injecting my shoulder and said after having the joint cleaned up via scope he walked out with a fully functioning shoulder, no pain, nothing. If you want I can give you his details.
> 
> I had my fourth injection last week, so far no benefit whatsoever.


Cheers Indie. I've still got an appointment to go to with the guy I requested, but if I get to the stage where I need another opinion, I'd appreciate going to a guy who is familiar with the procedure. So yes please, if you could PM his details that would be great.


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## HAWKEYE3

You have my sympathy as I had a dose of this in the 80's. Took a long time to get over it.

Regards

Ian


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## ArWeTherYet

Magnesium.


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## Bretto

ArWeTherYet said:


> Magnesium.


I'll look into it.

I was going to go a step further and ask that my bones be replaced with the same stuff as Wolverine. :lol:

I have a scan organised for next week and an appointment with a shoulder specialist 5 days later. We'll see what he comes back with.


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## ArWeTherYet

Bretto said:


> ArWeTherYet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Magnesium.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll look into it.
Click to expand...

Dont take my word for it, listen to Popeye.


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## grinner

the calcification is a development that shows 'something is wrong"
The body is trying desperately to repair an "unhealthy " tendon and it makes bone spicules where it shouldnt in a desperate attempt to keep the tendon from tearing.
Sort of like what happens inside sick arteries that "harden".

The calcification causes an inflamatory process (which usually produces pain) as inflamatory processes always do. No different to an inflamed appendix or inflamed tonsils.

Cortisone is a two edged sword.

It pretty much switches off the bodies inflamatory process (good , in that this soothes pain) but it also stops healing (bad , in that it weakens connective tissue).

if you had a bad sunburn , cortisone cream would be very soothing but it would weaken your skin, make it thinner, make it less resistant to germs , make it bruise more easily.

same in tendons , so you dont want to use too much.

Most injections nowdays into shoulders can be done by radiologists who can inject it straight into the calcification under xray guidance and "hit the spot"
sometimes the calcification forms a sterile "absess" full of inflamed gunk and these throb at night like a toothache especially if you roll over on them.
needling them releases the gunk which sometimes causes 48 hours of very bad pain , but it then resolves as the gunk gets reabsorbed ( sort of like lancing a boil)


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## Bretto

grinner said:


> ...
> sometimes the calcification forms a sterile "absess" full of inflamed gunk and these throb at night like a toothache especially if you roll over on them.


Sounds familiar.

I've found the pain in my shoulder has remained fairly consistent since February. I'm hoping the fact it hasn't got worse is a good sign.


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## Squidley

Indiedog more like Old Yeller!!!

get well soon


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## ArWeTherYet

The Korean osteopath in Scarborough does needling. I thought it was the same as acupuncture but it seems its different. Works well for me on muscles and sore joints ( which is mostly muscle related for me). Its not an immediate fix but does seem to help better than massage. Best to get it done regularly.  I go every few months when the old body reminds me.


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## ArWeTherYet

kraley said:


> ArWeTherYet said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Korean osteopath in Scarborough does needling. I thought it was the same as acupuncture but it seems its different. Works well for me on muscles and sore joints ( which is mostly muscle related for me). Its not an immediate fix but does seem to help better than massage. Best to get it done regularly. I go every few months when the old body reminds me.
> 
> 
> 
> It is _exactly_ like acupuncture in that it relies on the placebo effect to keep the rubes coming in for their 'treatments'.
Click to expand...

Yeah right. It


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## ArWeTherYet

Cause its a lot more plausible that a mystical doctor can cure a degenerated condition with a single shot of voodoo princess fetus stem cells. Best book your flight now Indie.....only america can save you.


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## gbc

Have you had scans? Have you been to see crapper yet? If you need needling your highly skilled aforementioned Physio will do it for you at no extra cost. Like a tems machine, needles are simply a stimulant to tell the brain where the pain is and to get some action happening quick. I have them fairly often for my various buggered bits. As a veteran of two a.c.'s, can I tell you to be prepared for some decent pain when getting shoulders needled. I don't know if my various recoveries have ever been miraculously sped up by needling, but I know it is pretty standard across sports physios to be used in conjunction with other treatments, and I can guarantee it has never slowed my recovery so there is nothing to lose.
Maximise Physio at camp hill is another good Physio I'd recommend in your area. I'll be there on Wednesday getting put back together so I can do the 100 k.m. M.S. Ride on Sunday. Woohoo getting old is great!


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## Bretto

Had my scans this afternoon. At least I can take solace in the fact that my initial guestimate of the issue was correct. Partial tendon tear above the bicep showed up on the Ultrasound. They couldn't find any sign of calcification on the x ray. Off to the shoulder specialist next Wednesday for some more bad news.


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## dru

kraley said:


> ArWeTherYet said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Korean osteopath in Scarborough does needling. I thought it was the same as acupuncture but it seems its different. Works well for me on muscles and sore joints ( which is mostly muscle related for me). Its not an immediate fix but does seem to help better than massage. Best to get it done regularly. I go every few months when the old body reminds me.
> 
> 
> 
> It is _exactly_ like acupuncture in that it relies on the placebo effect to keep the rubes coming in for their 'treatments'.
Click to expand...

Twit.


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## Bretto

indiedog said:


> Brett, not a good diagnosis, sorry to hear it. Surgery? In so many ways breaking a bone is so much better.


I'm not sure what's going to happen at the moment. The GP, while not a specialist, ran tests to try and find tendon issues above the bicep and rotator cuff. He couldn't trigger a reaction. The girl who performed the ultra sound, noted that a doctor won't perform surgery in all classes. It depends on how bad the tear is.

I did notice during the ultra sound she was pausing the scan to write overlays over the pictures. I got to see the tear, though I had no idea what I was looking at until she drew the line to show it. Several mentions of "bursa", so I imagine there is an issue there too.

It'll be a wait and see for my appointment on Wednesday. I'm guessing at first instance he'll send me off for an MRI.


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## Bretto

A little poorer after today but the issue has been narrowed to a superior labrum, anterior to posterior (or SLAP) tear.

Booked in for a Magnetic Resonance Angiography and some other test next month. Surgery looking pretty damn likely at this stage. Bad timing though. By the time it happens + rehab I'll miss the entire state tour season for volleyball.


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## dru

Bretto, really avoid the surgery if you can.

What happens is the inflammation (and pain) becomes normal and healing starts failing. It's hard to strengthen because of the inflammation.

Cortisone injections do wonders but are temporary. Sometimes, as I understand it, you need the cortisone to allow other treatments to start working. Exercises, physio etc. Without that bit though cortisone on it's own is temporary and if repeated enough times cortisone can create other problems. Clearly I am not medical, but my choice is no cortisone unless as an adjunct for other things.

Another therapy is, I'm struggling for correct terms and have forgotten the medical name (is it PRP?), but they use your own blood white cells to hype up the repair mechanism. You can't use anti-inflammatories or pain killers for this one and it is said to be very painful (not the injection but the few days after it). But repairing. I'm absolutely gutless when it comes to medical pain, but I'm definitely trying this before a scalpel.

Personally I think ultrasound is pointless for these type of injuries. Too much interpretation. But it's covered by Medicare etc where MRI is not until required by the specialist.

Obviously you have to follow medical advice. But I'm putting in some effort to check out the attitude of the specialist before I get there. If he is anti natural therapies like acupuncture I'll find someone else. Then If the suggestion is either cortisone or the scalpel, I'll be looking to another specialist. If it's two in a row though... Won't be arguing.


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## grinner

salticrak said:


> popped my shoulder a coupla months ago now,it feels like some bastard has punched me on the shoulder.Hurts like hell but have full movement,with pain.I had a massage by someone who does it for a living,but man i doubt i will have another due to increased discomfort i am feeling. What thoughts on massage therapy?


grinners feeling on pain.

pain is natures way of telling you you have done something wrong.
once nature is kind enough to have made you aware of this, nature should tell pain to f**k off.
chronic pain helps no one.
you could go the chronic pain killer route and get on the panadine forte and oxycontins but nature screws you again, because it just builds more receptors in the brain and you end up with addictions and withdrawals.

all the localised treatments help some people some of the time.
massage, acupuncture, TENS...these stimulate the skin or the nerves (remember your skin is like one massive nerve) and so they may help.

High tech modern scientific triumphalist medicine with its $1000 MRIs is very good at showing you pretty pictures etc etc but is no guarantee you will get better or more effective treatment.

some of the pain modulators are good. these switch off useless gated pain relays. drugs like endep , Neurontin and lyrica.
chronic pain tends to produce depression and this makes pain worse.
If you hit your thumb with a hammer and are lying in bed feeling sorry for yourself, your pain will be worse then if you go to a club and pick up a set of hot twins....so stay positive, don't focus on the pain.

grinner has had many broken things and I find the judicious use of strong narcotics for a few weeks and a positive mindset is the best.
and I always think swimming and hydrotherapy is the answer to everything.
I think its a back to the womb experience.

re whether acupuncture is mumbo jumbo or not.

the horse acupuncture bloke at equestrian qld told me he pulled in 500,000 last year and those rich pricks don't part with their cash if they don't see results. he made nearly as much as the top horse chiropractor who works for Gai waterhouse.
no harm in trying anything.


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## BIGKEV

salticrak said:


> Have learned heaps here,Grinz et al.


You going to Grinners club looking for twins now?


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## Happyaz

Mate I feel for you I had it with my right shoulder I went through small cases and just didn't do anything about it lost half movement till one day my arm hurt bad worst than normal at work by 5pm I was at the hospital couldn't move my arm, hand , fingers nothing . Dr said I could it cut open or try to take the pain and put me on to a good physiotherapist so I took her advice and four mouth latter it is great it was the most painfully thing I have every had 
Good luck mate those rubber tubes will be your best friend
Cheer


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## dru

I tried paddling through but things just didn't get any better. So I'm off the water now. grrrrr.

I find heat helps too. But the best so far is massage. Best massage is physical therapy/physio style of thing. Painful but definitely helps.

There is a set of exercises on the surfski.info forum which cover the standard recommendations. You need a theraband (exersise bungy).


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## dru

Diagnosis from the physician after MRI... Tendonopathy.

So apparently:
x surgery not an option 
x cortizone won't help
x PRP not recommended (or shouldn't be) for tendonopathy
x pain means stop. Paddling.

Over to the physios for a properly structured excersise programme and simply allow time. Possibly a lot of it.

Fortunately we have the TI now!


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## dru

Sleeping is my biggest thing, now that I stopped paddling. On my back I snore. On my side I stuff up any shoulder repair that should be going on. Doh!

It'll work, time is the thing. Annoying, but not more than that.


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## ArWeTherYet

Jeeze! it must suck getting really old. 
At least you get to retire in your 60's, us younger blokes will have to hold it together till where 70. :shock:


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## gbc

Yeah, steroid injections in my right knee now and an MRI on Monday to see if I have a miniscus tear/cyst/Itb syndrome. Off the bike for a while longer yet I think. It just never ends.
Indie, I am dealing with the sports medicine centre on riding rd. they are excellent if you are still looking for good management of your injury?


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## scater

Good news I guess Brad but you've got to be pissed about the bad advice you were given. Sounds like you and I will be coming good at around the same time. I'm going out of my mind with boredom at the moment but glad there's no real dispute about how do deal with my injury. Good luck on the recovery bud.


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## dru

Great news, Brad!


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## Dodge

Nice to have now turned a corner Brad, good news.


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## dru

Superb link Roberta, thanks for sharing Brad.


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## Bretto

Had my MRA/Arthrogram Friday. Prior to going, everyone kept saying how bad the scan is (closed in space + noise). Felt like being in my camping swag listening to someone play a 25min game of 8-bit era space invaders. Almost fell asleep in there.

Another round with the specialist on Wednesday.


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## scater

I fell asleep in my MRI, twitched, and stuffed one of the scan programs which the radiologist then had to run again.


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## dru

So my turn again...

It's been described to me like getting a leg injury. You can walk but with a limp. Then over time the limp takes over as the sequencing of the muscle changes and keeps the limp.

Now transfer this thinking to the shoulder. My injury is a clear over-use. The actual "damage" in the shoulder is simply an active 52 yo male. Cricks and burrs etc. no point operating or anything. But when the thing flared up the "limp" set in to avoid the pain and has become normal.

The physio has me working an excersise programme that is about getting rid of the "limp". I find a bit like pilotes actually.

Min 12 weeks up to 6 months, sigh. Glad I got the Hobie!


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## dru

Lazybugger said:


> So Dru, are you having any issues lifting the hobie on/off?
> 
> Are you coming up for another pre-xmas mud-crabbing run? As we now know an AI makes an excellent base ship ;-)


Got a new car. One that tows a trailer.  the TI is fine, no bloody lifting whatsoever. Still trying to work out how to adjust a mirage drive.

What is winter mud crabbing like? I am currently unemployed, so a trip to SEQ sounds on the cards. I have no problem whatsoever with getting my TI muddy!


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## Bretto

Got my verdict. Significant labrum tear. Minor rotator cuff tear. Surgery set for mid August. Bye bye fishing for at least 4 months. More likely around 6 months.

Probably going to list the Outback for sale shortly. By the time I can cast a fishing rod again, I'll be due for an upgrade.


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## Daveyak

I had surgery in early December for rotator cuff repair & was paddling again by April. I was careful to only use weight on my good arm when putting the kayak on & off the car & found paddling a kayak to be great physiotherapy to help me rebuild strength in that (right) shoulder. I only did one handed casts with the rods from the kayak & mostly trolling & do the heavy work, when fighting a fish, with my good (left) arm. I would think that if you're a kayak pedaller you should have even less of a problem getting back on the water.

Your physio will become a very frequent contact & so be guided by them on what you can & can't do as you recuperate. There will be heaps of exercises to get through to rehab your shoulder & I found paddling fitted in well with what I was given to do.

Mine was a work injury so had all sorts of rehab people, physiotherapists & exercise physiologists were involved which helped. I've just been given clearance to return to work from next week & while the repair wasn't totally successful, my shoulder functions well enough to do most things I want & I'll be continuing some of the exercises & stretches for quite some time to keep rebuilding the strength. A mate who had a similar injury reckoned his shoulder took over eighteen months to get back to normal.

Good luck with your surgery. When you're out of the sling, be sure to find a good physiotherapist (& do what they say).


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## dru

All the best Bretto. Have to say I'm glad I avoided surgery. All to the good in the end.


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## Bretto

Cheers guys

Just got a horror story from one of the temps we have at work currently on reduced duties after 3 shoulder operations. Wasn't too phased until he rattled off his surgery dramas. A lot more stressed now than I was this morning.


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## ArWeTherYet

Another man down.....great more fish for us.

Have plenty of foods with Magnesium, Potassium, Calcium, Zinc and vitamin C in your diet and your body can have a better chance of healing. Cut back on alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, sugar etc cause they can stymie the absorption of good vitamins and minerals and slow down the healing.


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## dru

I get pain above the biceps sort of following the bone up high. All related to rotator cuff.

But it could be anything. Early check is the lesson in this thread. See a physio. He'll call you a hypochondriac and you can sleep well.


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## dru

Yeeha!

First paddle in months today. A short 6 k run. 12k/h+ on the way out! a staggering 5.5k/h on the way back. It was _very_ windy. Guess which way the wind was running.

:lol:

Feeling great. Shoulder has a LNG way to go but the physio gave me the OK once we got 70%. I reckon I'm about 60%. So I cheated.

Feels great to be back on the water.


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## Bretto

Well... got on the table, 2 mins from the operating room. Needle on my arm ready to go under and the nurse says to stop. Doesn't like what she sees. Calls the surgeon over. Spots a pimple/Ingrown hair I didn't see. Get a lecture from the doctors about infections. Doctor wasn't comfortable to operate in the circumstances. Op delayed under next Tuesday. Now on antibiotics. Back to playing the waiting game.


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## dru

Scott hope the injection works. I never liked the sound of it, but a number people who I respect, incl those pesky Naturopath and alternative medicine guys, have talked me into the benefit. Go for it.

Bretto, what the!!! Hell mate, don't know what to say but grit your teeth.


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## RhubarbTheYeti

I had bursitis of the knee last year - the doc drained it then injected cortisone and it healed nicely


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## gbc

I don't want to talk about knees. I went in with ITBS, came out with ITBS, cysts, arthritis and a couple of 'small' degenerative miniscal tears. Even Lance Armstrong's doctor can't save my cycling career......stupid MRI machines!
I now have a chart at the local Physio, and depending on time vs money we decide if it is the AC, the hip flexors, the ribs or the knees we are doing each Wednesday.
It could be worse though.....
Paddling Milford sound and Pohatu (akaroa) in September and I am very excited. Well I can't ski with the kids anymore (docs orders) so one has to pass the time somehow


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## gbc

That's no good mate, you'll get to the bottom of it. Keep out of that bloody sport doctors place on riding road though, they've found enough on me to retire on I reckon, and they have me going back for knee injections now!
As you well know, I am a mediocre archer, so I'll be doing river loops on the deadly treadly for a little while yet I think. Have you been to see the Physio with the world's biggest head yet? He has no choice but to be a smart man with a brain that size haha.
No green dream from the vet for me just yet, the mrs needs to do it the tricky way to get the payout or she needs to keep me going


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## gbc

Dr McLean on RIding Rd. Hislop is the gun there, but he is booked out months ahead with all the pro athletes and I needed to not wait. They are a good mob. If you need another Physio recommendation in your area I can assist again if need be.
Here's to us being able to wear everything out just in time to drop dead  I'd hate to think I might die with body bits I haven't used up.


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## dru

With a referral from the GP I get cover for some things. With a referral from the specialist I get cover from others. Pretty sure this would be included.


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## Bretto

Lazybugger said:


> Yeah maybe the receptionist was having a bad day. The ultrasound today was bulkbilled sounds like I should be getting something back.


I'm still new to whole doctor/scan/specialist/surgery thing. For me, things started cheap and ramped up from there.

GP $65,
xray/US/MRI were all bulk billed. 
Contrast injection $320
Specialist $90 & $200
Hospital bed $4,400
Surgery $3,200
Anaesthetist $650-$1,000
Surgical Anchors $500-$3,000.

I got some money back on most of those things except for the hospital bed.


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