# 32yr old Kayaker missing on Moreton Bay 25/05/2013



## Guest (May 25, 2013)

Anyone got any details? My mum just rang to make sure it wasn't me!


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

Can't be me ...I'm a tad older.

It cannot be good, as it was about 20 knots there today.


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## bruus (Aug 27, 2010)

Not me either. I havn't heard anything about it


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## Guest (May 25, 2013)

> Bay search for missing kayaker
> 
> May 25, 2013, 4:30 p.m.
> 
> ...


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

As of a few minutes ago, he had still not been found, despite VMR/Coastguard still looking for him.

Let's hope and pray.....

This once again raises the questions about basic safety gear. Does he have a PFD? We hope so, though only two weeks ago I saw 6 kayakers on SOT's at Scarby without PFD's. WTF?

If only he had a VHF ($ 160 +), or a PLB (with GPS)($ 400).....he would have been rescued hours ago. Let's hope and pray.....


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## kevinnugent (Aug 14, 2012)

I saw aerial shots of the area on the news. It was flat as a tack. Obviously no way to know what the conditions were like earlier though. Fingers crossed for him.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

.


kevinnugent said:


> I saw aerial shots of the area on the news. It was flat as a tack. Obviously no way to know what the conditions were like earlier though. Fingers crossed for him.


It was over twenty knots when he went missing. The wind is not so important now, though at the time it may well have been a contributing factor. The biggest concern is the water temperature (about 19 C), and the 'assumed' lack of safety comms. Exposure and hypothermia are inevitable by now.


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## Thegaff (Apr 19, 2011)

Ive seen it a few times now out at scarby people with out pfd's, Ive oftern thought about going and asking them why they dont have one and telling them they need to get one but I never end up doing it...I probably should start.


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## andybear (Jan 15, 2006)

Hi all
Courier mail says he was found at the Port of Brisbane,and is being cared for by the ambos.
No details on his condition....

Cheers all andybear


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## theclick (Jun 25, 2007)

Questionable conditions to attempt that crossing.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

theclick said:


> Questionable conditions to attempt that crossing.


Yes Andy. But not so much if he had the skills.  If he had the skills though, surely he would have had the safety comms like VHF and PLB. The people who are in that place are the ones most likely to have all that safety gear, but they rarely use it because their skills get them out of it.



andybear said:


> Hi all
> Courier mail says he was found at the Port of Brisbane,and is being cared for by the ambos.
> No details on his condition....
> 
> Cheers all andybear


Yes, thanks Andy. He was, thankfully, found by Water Police near the coal loading facility, within the Brisbane River mouth, close to 10 pm. He was not in his kayak, but on top of it. Apparently there were two of them, and the other person got to shore previously and alerted authorities. We will find out more early today on the news. Just before he was found, there were 18 vessels searching for him, including 2 helicopters at $ 3,000/hr each. (Total cost? - I would conservatively guess at $ 80,000).

He has some questions to answer, and some reality checks to implement. We'll leave that to the police.

_If_ it happens to you, have you got that safety gear?

Skills are another matter. Addressing those skills directly, we will hold another safety day at Scarborough about September ... _be there!_

Do not doubt....there will be more to follow in his paddle strokes. It is far too easy to buy a kayak and set out with no skills, safety training, or back up safety gear such as VHF and PLB (with GPS). There is no mentoring/fostering/developing of skills or safety that exist in a 'club environment.' We, members of the fastest growing sport in Oz, 'own' that dilemma, and sadly, we risk being labelled accordingly as 'idiots.' We also run the risk of subsequent greater government regulation.  :twisted:

Is there anything we can do, other than Safety Days, to stem the tide of 'suicide kayakers'?


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## Beekeeper (Aug 20, 2011)

When I was returning to shore on Friday with South West winds to 20knots ahead of an approaching nasty looking cloud formation in the South West, I noticed a fellow launching a kayak 50 metres from my landing spot. He didn't appear to have safety gear, and I toyed with the idea of warning him about just how bad the wind was when out of the protection of the cliffs and built-up area, plus the impending nasty stuff.

He looked like he was coming over to me to say hello, but veered off and didn't wave back when I waved (I would then have warned him), and I left him to it.

I kept checking on his progress, and when he reached the point where he could feel a bit of the strength of wind and also see the cloud formation easier, he turned back and when I'd completed my tasks a was about to drive off, he'd done about three runs up and down the in-close protected water.

Myself, I'd hugged the shore-line between the jetties at Reef Point at Scarborough and as far South as Redcliffe jetty, but obviously could feel the wind-strength at all times, and also see the pretty big waves out to sea where the wind was really showing its effects.

Trev (incapable through recent operation at the time) and I had observed a couple of women only just scrape out of trouble one day last year, near our launching area. A pretty mean Westerly had sprung up after lovely conditions. They could easily have reached the shore and walked back to their car, then driven back to the yak, but their mind-set said that they had to paddle to their car.

That mind-set could have cost them dearly. Both Trev and I were most concerned for them and had they not returned safely, I would have radioed the Coast Guard. I thought about going out to help them at one stage, but thought that I would only complicate matters and get myself into strife as well, so resorted to observing and radio-ing help if needed.

Added to their predicament was that their paddling skills on a two-man craft was just not up to the task... their timing was all over the place.

I bet they were absolutely knackered when they hit shore. They made it all right, but I haven't seen them there since.

Trev and I weren't together as all this unfolded, as he had begun walking back to his car that he'd left at Margate, using the walk as a return to fitness after his op.

Both he and I have aided new-chums to kayaking during the past year, and see heaps of others with "get into strife" potential, regularly... it's just too easy to buy very cheap kayaks nowadays, grab a paddle, stick a rod in the holder and out you go!

Cheers, Jimbo


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Out of interest what was the wind direction?

I have done the journey from Whyte Island boat ramp to the channel between Green and St Helena (and return) on several occasions with the afternoon SE kicking in on the return. Used to be my personal stomping ground, my extended back yard. As long as you are fit and prepared the biggest issue is (a) at low tide the mud banks from Fishermans Island are too much for easy portage and a long way to go round (b) at high tide finding the turning buoy which is also a marker for Wynnum. Especially tricky with a little spray and the afternoon sun in your eyes.

With a SE at least it's pushing you to shore. I wouldn't do the same trip with an expected NE - unless I changed to point to point and got out at Wello. I'd leave it well alone in a southerly (B plan exit at Nudgee) or westerly (B plan you have to chance on the islands).

The issue with Moreton Bay, I guess similar to PPB, is shallow water, with less fetch (clear distance that lets the wind get a grip on the water) than you might think (Stradbroke and Moreton Islands are in the road of the on shore breeze) the "chop" is ferocious. White caps might not appear until the wind is somewhat higher than you think. Chop Easily tops 1.5 m, vertical face (most kayaks get buried rather than catch these runners), and a high skill level is needed to maintain any direction other than with the wind, or broached to the waves. The rudder may not help, you need paddle skills. The chop is incredibly close too, no time to gather wits, no sets, it's just constant. A chop wave in theory does not have the power of swell with a slow period between waves, but they are not just curling, but dumping. What power chop has it uses to max effect.

Wind strength descriptions like Beaufort don't help - good for the open blue but not here. On the whole I'm more comfortable off Sydney in 2.5m swell than on Moreton once the chop goes over 1.2m.

Glad to hear they found them. One other thought, with just about any form of communication you are in good stead on these waters, the bay is well travelled and well supported by VMR police maritime etc, let alone the Ports people. You don't want to be left floating over night, aim to self preserve but call in the Cavalry at a time that is as easy for them as you can make it.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

BigGee said:


> Re the cost; so do you suggest they should have been left to drown?
> 
> Gee


Not at all Geoff....not intimated at all. SOLAS is paramount, regardless of how the situation occurs. I've been out of a yak in Moreton Bay and failed successful re-entry many times in an hour. It is a feeling of utter loneliness, not to mention the cold and ever present danger of sharks.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

cjbfisher said:


> dru said:
> 
> 
> > Out of interest what was the wind direction?
> ...


Well there you go, I already said I'd be cautious or be ready to head for Nudgy. If the SSW was solid, and you miss the end of Fishermans Island there is no obvious B Plan that does not involve paddle skill.


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## theclick (Jun 25, 2007)

I'm with Dru. I've made a similar crossing to peel in wind vs tide conditions, and don't plan on doing it again. All the skill in the world won't help if you screw a shoulder or or your rudder jams (an arguement for skegged boats). You should always plan a trip with a backup location that is going with the conditions. In a SW, this was Moreton Island... quite a way. Maybe Mud Island. It sounds like he did well to get to the port


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

I agree with Dru and Andy about Moreton Bay wind against tide. Conditions can be incredibly rough in no time, in a not very strong wind. It is very easy for conditions to build that could capsize you. Once you're in, you will get cold quickly.

I feel it is topical to post this link, about a very experienced sea kayaker who almost perished: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=52843&p=542936#p542936

There are also a number of other gems in the Safety Section, including this one by Labrat...viewtopic.php?f=9&t=53709


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## eagle4031 (Jan 29, 2010)

andybear said:


> Hi all
> Courier mail says he was found at the Port of Brisbane,and is being cared for by the ambos.
> No details on his condition....
> 
> Cheers all andybear


That is good news


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## Safa (Aug 4, 2006)

cjbfisher said:


> kraley said:
> 
> 
> > The only people I know who can handle those conditions are also the ones wise enough to stay out of it.
> ...


X10


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

Safa said:


> cjbfisher said:
> 
> 
> > kraley said:
> ...


I do not agree Ken/Clive/Chris... you do not know enough people at the top end of the skills spectrum. _Your_ limit is not necessarily someone else's limit. There are people far more skilled who think your 20 knots is child's play to them. You cannot pick a figure, e.g. 20 knots, and say that is the limit. (Caveat: depends what you are paddling, and where you are paddling.)

If you guys are talking only SOT's, which is what most of us paddle, I agree that many are not as seaworthy as sea kayaks (generally). For a start, they suffer windage, far beyond most sea kayak designs. But a _high level of skills _can compensate for many deficiencies of design. Sadly, a high level of paddle skills is lacking in the kayak fishing fraternity (generally speaking).

SOT designs are generally limiting in strongish winds (cf with sea kayaks), but skills training and regular practice can cover a multitude of design deficiencies in the craft.

20 knots? Pheeew! I _cannot agree with that as a blanket rule_, but at the same time I do not endorse people without good skills going out in 10 - 15 knots.


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## Scruffy (Nov 9, 2008)

Hi guys,did anyone pick up on what type of kayak he was using it sounds like it might have been a SIK as it filled up with water.
If so that is two in a week that have had the same problem gone out to sea in rough weather without skirts. It is only a matter of time before someone drowns. It will be a shame when legislation and regulations drive people away from kayaking.but that is what will happen if idiots keep doing stupid things and have to be protected from themselves.This is my thoughts on the matter.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

kraley said:


> I think that a blanket ban on kayaking when the weather calls for winds exceeding 20knots would do more to prevent these things than all the training in the world.
> 
> The only people I know who can handle those conditions are also the ones wise enough to stay out of it.


Ken, indeed. K1 get to you?

I start with this quote to look closely into what you are saying. See a blanket ban would have an impact, but what you are doing with this statement is to quite deliberately diss training.

And the next statement



kraley said:


> The only people I know who can handle those conditions are also the ones wise enough to stay out of it.


Well it leads perfectly to K1's statement that you do not know enough people at the top end of the skills spectrum. And he does not need to know the hell who you know to make the comment. Just to look CAREFULLY at what you said. Which is what you purport to ask him to do.

I wonder, when was your last Moreton Bay trip? To be honest I have to go back 3-4 years to the last time I was in these exact same waters in 20 knots. Here in our water stretch Ken, I look forward to the rare days when we get 30+ knot westerlies. A bigger hoot you can not have than a flat slightly breaking down wind at 30. It's a treat. The blokes you claim to know with skills who sit on the shore are simply missing something.

What is weird is that on recent thread purporting to be an ambitious 50 knot on PPB I think, with a PA of all things, but you got defensive and supportive. A comment along the lines of "no kayak is sea worthy".

Split personality sir, and skillset is what makes the difference.

If there is a goose on this thread - its not K1.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

kraley said:


> dru said:
> 
> 
> > kraley said:
> ...


Ken, your intended intimidation is noted. EDIT or at least your condesencion. Pity you failed to lock this one Ken But honest we are on a safety theme here. I am ok by the way, thanks for asking.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

kraley said:


> kayakone said:
> 
> 
> > you do not know enough people at the top end of the skills spectrum.
> ...


Ken you have really gone over the top, once again  Ad nauseum.

"You don't know who the hell I know. You strut around here spouting your safety training as if it is some magic elixer for stupidity. It's not." 

I don't give a fig who you know Ken. Who you know doesn't alter _your_ skill level. Nor did I say, or imitimate, that safety training is a "magic elixir for stupidity", _but _, I do say that all safety training does increase your skills and chances of survival when the shit hits the fan.



> _Your_ limit is not necessarily someone else's limit.


And my limit isn't what you think it is. Again - go back and read my post SLOWLY before you get all "i can do things you can't". Its not about that. I have been out there in as much or more than you, babycakes - doesn't make it wise.....[/color]

I never said my skills exceeded yours Ken, nor am I defining _your_ limit Ken. I am not comparing skills, as in you vs me. _You _ set the 'limit' by saying:

 "


kraley said:


> I think that a blanket ban on kayaking when the weather calls for winds exceeding 20 knots would do more to prevent these things than all the training in the world.
> 
> The only people I know who can handle those conditions are also the ones wise enough to stay out of it.


Bullshit. You have admitted that you know only people who stay away from 20 knots +. You have summarily discounted those who have exceptional skills, who go out and have fun, with a large degree of safety, in winds far exceeding 20 knots. (I'm not advocating this for SOT's generally, regardless of skill levels of the paddler.)

"And my limit isn't what you think it is. Again - go back and read my post SLOWLY before you get all "I can do things you can't". Its not about that. I have been out there in as much or more than you, babycakes - doesn't make it wise....."

I have no idea Ken what you've been out in. I have no idea of your skills level is "babycakes", nor do I give a toss. And how the heck do you know what I've been out in? And how the heck do you know what my skills are?

"If you really read what I said - I suggested that the people that know their limits are the only one's who belong out there. If the peeps just observed a predicted wind limit we could avoid all this nonsense."

BS. You said: "


kraley said:


> I think that a blanket ban on kayaking when the weather calls for winds exceeding 20 knots would do more to prevent these things than all the training in the world.
> 
> The only people I know who can handle those conditions are also the ones wise enough to stay out of it.


"paddle skills are secondary to common sense - no matter what the craft. Do you want me to post the pictures of my having to tow some SIK shithead in because he thought his fibreglass investment meant he should be able to defy the laws of physics?"

Really? So skills training is on a par with common sense? And common sense is common? Get real. Pull the other leg [mod edit].



> SOT designs are generally limiting in strongish winds (cf with sea kayaks), but skills training and regular practice can cover a multitude of design deficiencies in the craft.


blah blah blah - its not about the margins - the morons you are talking about don't have the sense to look at seabreeze.

You have to be joking Ken. That is, if you rely on Seabreeze alone. Do you detect a note of cynicism?

[/quote]

You have needed to be rescued more than most people posting here - why is your endorsement worth anything?[/quote]

WTF? Where did you get that from [mod edit]? When, pray was I 'rescued'? You are obviously attempting to discredit my skills, in the hope your 'skills' will be on display.... a typical ploy by Ken. You have only succeeded in discrediting yourself.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Droll lol, the SeaBreeze thing is a stand out for me too K1. Sets a skill (or at least knowledge) limit pretty much right there.


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## freeyaker (Feb 26, 2013)

Just a quick question, Is there many yakker than have real trouble to get back into their yak ? I can totally understand it for a SIK or in the surf but otherwise, I think one should always make sure that climbing back in his yak can be achieve (even if it is using some trick or gear to get back in). If you cannot do that for any reason, you then definitely need to get all of the safety gear that can improve but never guarantee your survival. Knowing your gear and its limitation can really help.
Also for any person who do not wear a pfd, that is your choice. However think about the fact that if a pfd really impair your swimming capacity or whatsoever, you can always remove it once you are in the water while if you fall in without it, good luck to put it on.
Keep yourself out of trouble
Cheers

Boris


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## Junglefisher (Jun 2, 2008)

Simpler to just ban all kayaks rather than ban going out in 20 knots or more.
Easier still to just ban anyone from going near the water.


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## BIGKEV (Aug 18, 2007)

Stippy said:


> kraley said:
> 
> 
> > I think that a blanket ban on kayaking when the weather calls for winds exceeding 20knots would do more to prevent these things than all the training in the world.
> ...


 :lol:


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## billpatt (Apr 12, 2010)

At the end of the day all the bickering aside, hopefully the guy has learnt a valuable lesson from his mistake (granted it was a stupid mistake that shouldn't have occcured, and also goes to show the importance of learning before doing, christ how many times to newbies need to be told to practise re-entries before anything, and read weather forecasts).

Personally I can see the day coming that kayakers will need to obtain a ticket of some type, showing they have basic skills that will get them out of trouble, and hopefully not waste rescuers time in the future.

Just my two cents worth...


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## Guest (May 26, 2013)

Well didn't this slide into a slanging match. No need for name calling gents, especially in a topic about safety. Your points don't seem all that valid when you start wielding personal slights.

Good to hear old mate was found safe and well. Could easily have been a different result.


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## grinner (May 15, 2008)

spending time on the water is the best skill that will save you

and a cool head. i think , therefore that there's got to be an element of taking some risks to develop that "cool head" under pressure.

the other thing is that if you dont spend a lot of time on the water, it is a very foreign place and you will tend to often make a bad situation worse.
this goes from kayaks to million dollar cruisers.

i know a chap (thru VMR) who took out his million dollar boat on its maiden voyage at night (silly) was having trouble anchoring. reversed over his tender rope, dragged the tender under his boat which holed his hull and proceeded to sink .

i had a friend in a tinny who had the tide turn and the wind came up, anchor rope stuck, had his missus trying to pull the anchor up. a passing boat wave caused a surge and her finger went under the rope and snapped like a twig.

the scenarios are "uncountable' for what can go wrong at sea. and i actually feel a helluva lot safer in a kayak then some blokes boats  

so get out there and push the limits (a bit) do it on the weekend when theres plenty of boats around, take a mate, learn to swim.

i would never support a blanket ban as the meteorology dept just cant (thru no fault) of their own, get it right.
i have taken the family out on a day that was scheduled 10 to 15 and it has gotten up to 30 to 35. waves coming over the bow, kids bailing. its scarey stuff.

a few items that are worth taking

a sponge
a bit of rope (to tie up to a beacon if neccessary)
an old flare or 2
dont wear heavy clothing that will sink.
a whistle
a reflective bit of mirror
watch out for boats and jetskis (i still consider this the biggest danger)

but mainly just practice difficult stuff, nothing wrong with spending a day in the shore break mastering the art of riding a bucking kayak or even heading out on a river and practicing paddling in 35 knots , in the safety of a confined waterway


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## Ado (Mar 31, 2008)

As far as I'm aware, we don't yet know the circumstances. From what I've picked up on this thread, the guy wasn't on his own, did not raise an alarm to be rescued, and got to shore by himself. For all we know, he may have been an experienced paddler training for a serious open water paddle that wanted to ge more training in trying conditions. For all we know the kayak may have holed through no fault of his own, and taken on water. For all we know he may have had a PLB and decided not to use it because he was confident he could still ge back by himself and didn't want to trouble anyone for a rescue. I know I'm probably wrong on all this, but so is anyone else that draws conclusions here.


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## rodrocket (Apr 24, 2012)

BigGee said:


> kraley said:
> 
> 
> > billpatt said:
> ...


Well, that'd put me on the beach on all counts if a "ticket" was introduced. 
Hope it doesn't happen.


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## Ado (Mar 31, 2008)

Another sea kayaker reported missing on the radio this morning. I think it is the Whitsundays. The story I heard was that he dived in to swim to his partner who had capsized. Apparently he saved her but went missing himself.


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## mrsnapperman (Oct 1, 2008)

I hope that it all ends well with this latest incident. I too would love to hear how the Moreton bay accident unfolded as you can always learn from other peoples mistakes. Mr Brisbane man or mates of, if you are out there let us know. Also to ask a stupid question - how do you get back in a sit in once you fall out, also is there a way of getting the water out?


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## ArWeTherYet (Mar 25, 2007)

mrsnapperman said:


> Also to ask a stupid question - how do you get back in a sit in once you fall out, also is there a way of getting the water out?


Depends on the conditions and kayak, there are a few different ways. Not easy especially in poor conditions by yourself, but I know people who cant get back on a SOT either.
You can bail it out with a bucket or bilge pump, I have both. The best way is to have the skills and expertise top avoid falling out in the first place....but shit happens, so you practice reentries.
The bloke did the right thing by at least staying with his kayak.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

I know this much.... he was not experienced. 
He was with others, but got well ahead of them. They turned back and raised the alarm as conditions were far rougher than they could cope with, and they had not seen him for a long time.
He capsized and could not re-enter.
By sheer luck he ended up in the river mouth (3.30 pm low tide swept him E - NE, 10 pm high tide swept him into the river).
He was found on the upturned hull by the water police about 10 pm.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

And another one. Surf skier paddler (FNQ.) still not found. Strongish winds and showers ....not looking good.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/201 ... issing-men

If only all who paddled ANYTHING could first learn to re-enter..........


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

ArWeTherYet said:


> mrsnapperman said:
> 
> 
> > Also to ask a stupid question - how do you get back in a sit in once you fall out, also is there a way of getting the water out?
> ...


Specifically where sea kayak training starts.

Ideally the answer is to roll (Eskimo style). If you blow it and ditch, my next step would be to re-enter underwater and try the roll again. Last you need to get the kayak up and re-enter. Easier with a buddy but necessary skill if you solo. Final problem is the cockpit is full. You have a race to empty it before getting swamped and going over again. Clubs recommend (require) an electric pump. Clearly it is easier to pick up these skills with training.


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## WadsYak (May 20, 2013)

Man this thread gave me a bit of a reality check :shock: im only just starting out on a pretty cheap set up and I dont wear a jacket :? , but ive only been out off Redcliffe where I live and I dont go out very far (250-300m) and if its blowing above 12 I give it a miss, I was thinking bout goin out a bit further but now ill just wait for the glassy days :lol:

Ps is there any clubs in reddy or yakkers who go out regulary wouldnt mind headin out with a crew....couple of me mates have yaks but dont go out as much as I like to.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

WadsYak said:


> Man this thread gave me a bit of a reality check :shock: im only just starting out on a pretty cheap set up and I dont wear a jacket :? , but ive only been out off Redcliffe where I live and I dont go out very far (250-300m) and if its blowing above 12 I give it a miss, I was thinking bout goin out a bit further but now ill just wait for the glassy days :lol:
> 
> Ps is there any clubs in reddy or yakkers who go out regulary wouldnt mind headin out with a crew....couple of me mates have yaks but dont go out as much as I like to.


WY

You really should, IMO, wear a PFD 2 all the time, regardless of the distance from shore, or the current conditions. Things change, weather changes..... sometimes _very_ quickly. Forget the rules. Ttry getting out of your yak in even 12 knots being tangled in a fishing line or paddle leash, and see how you go. How are your re-entry skills? See the Safety Section.

We are planning another 'Safety Day' in September. Bookmark that one.


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## WadsYak (May 20, 2013)

I am a beginner in kayak fishing so ill take it all on board, but I have been kayaking since I was 8 so im quite comfortable on a kayak and re-entry is no problem for me ive done it plenty of times in the surf and rough conditions ;-) winds and rough seas are a problem for me when im fishing out of my kayak because im prone and drifiting, and like I said in my previous post I am quite toey about when to go out I pick my days wisely, im not gonna go out in hectic conditions for the sake of paddling :lol: definatley gonna pick up a PFD but just dont have the money for one atm....they are a life saver.


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