# Traps for young (and old) players



## kayakone

After a few days of temperatures into the high 30's and low 40's, this morning SE Qld woke to a refreshing wind change from the SE. Yesterday morning 5 of us were out at Scarby for a few hours on a mirror sea (viewtopic.php?f=17&t=52403), but this morning would have been folly. But why? At 3.00 am it was 6-7 knots from the SW, so just perfect! Twenty five minutes later......

Date/ Time.....Dir........Wind....Gusts in knots
12/02:30am ... W ...... 5........6
12/03:00am ... SW ..... 6........7
12/03:25am ...	SSE ..... 23......30
12/03:30am ...	SSE ..... 24......30 
12/04:00am ...	SSE ..... 29......37

It hit everywhere, Peel Is going from 7 knots to 27 knots in minutes, the Southport Seaway Tower from 7 to 30. Most SOT's would be difficult to control in 27 - 37 knot winds. In fact it is difficult to even hold onto a paddle at 30 knots. Also note the (90 degree) change in direction from W to SSE.

Many of us check weather carefully, but what if _you_ hadn't checked the forecast? What if _you_ hadn't monitored the wind change coming up the NSW coast? What if _you_ went out and was hit by a 30 + knot wind? Most people would be in big trouble. Probably off their yak and swimming for it, or flotsam.

Moral of the story:

1. Check marine *forecast* the night before.
2. Check what is actually happening on the ground (water) before committing...this is *observations* on BOM, and is continually recorded at Automatic Weather Stations (AWS) all over the country. Observations are the only thing that counts on the morning of departure. Don't get into a mindset like "but last night they said it would be only 15 knots."
3. You can use the AWS to check trends, and observe the proximity of such a dangerous wind change well before it hits you.
4. If in doubt don't go, your life (and loss of gear) is not worth it. There will be a better day for it. Do something else...go for a walk, run, cycle.
5. Go with a buddy if possible (unless your buddy is less experienced and likely to be a liability).
6. Tell somone (who can check on your safe return) where you are going and what your intentions are.
7. Work on and develop your safety skills such as swimming in all your fishing kit, and practising re-entries. Work on surf skills if intending to try this aspect in the future.
8. Develop a plan to acquire all safety gear such as whistle, re-entry assist strap (which cost peanuts), and of course gear required by law for some waters, such items as flares, VHF radio and a PLB (or EPIRB). Both VHF radio and a PLB can be bought for about $ 700 combined, which includes GPS function in the PLB, greatly assisting a rescuer to locate you promptly.

Safe yakking all

Trevor


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## ArWeTherYet

kayakone said:


> 5. Go with a buddy if possible (unless your buddy is less experienced and likely to be a liability).
> 
> Trevor


WTF is a "buddy"

I'd also take my trolley so's I can paddle in if I went the wrong way and trolley back to the car, cause while its good fun to cop a few waves in the chest, it can be slow going and I'm lazy.

Good points Trev, but I dont know where to get a buddy..... gay bar?


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## mnemonix

Can anyone even make headway using paddle power in 30knot winds?

I've tried it in my Viking Tempo Fisherman. With no rudder and paddle power I am lucky to even get the yak 90 degrees to the wind, let alone making head way into it. 5 minutes was enough to blow me a couple of km's into the middle of Lake Macquarie.
Luckily the 54lb electric was on the back and powered me back to a safer location. Without it, I'd be heading for the far shoreline with the wind behind me and calling for a car to pick the yak up.


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## ArWeTherYet

Some kayaks are worse than others, but I've been caught in wing/currents that I haven't been able to make head way. If you can paddle with it or diagonally, even tacking can work, to get to protected waters. If you haven't got that option, then a drogue anchor will slow you down and you should ring in for help.
Dont panic and don't wear yourself out.
You need to always make a risk assessment when you go out and plan according to that......follow Trevs suggestions.


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## kayakone

ArWeTherYet said:


> kayakone said:
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Go with a buddy if possible (unless your buddy is less experienced and likely to be a liability).
> 
> Trevor
> 
> 
> 
> WTF is a "buddy?"
> 
> I'd also take my trolley so's I can paddle in if I went the wrong way and trolley back to the car, cause while its good fun to cop a few waves in the chest, it can be slow going and I'm lazy.
> 
> Good points Trev, but I dont know where to get a buddy..... gay bar?
Click to expand...

"Gay bar"...possibly Paul, but I'm referring to a paddling partner of similar competence.



mnemonix said:


> Can anyone even make headway using paddle power in 30knot winds?
> 
> I've tried it in my viking tempo fisherman. With no rudder and pedal power I am lucky to even get the yak 90 degrees to the wind, let alone making head way into it. 5 minutes was enough to blow be a couple of km's into the middle of lake macquarie.
> Luckily the 54lb electric was on the back and powered be back to a safer location. Without it, I'd be heading for the far shoreline with the wind behind me and calling for a car to pick the yak up.


Mnemonix,
The short answer in a SOT is no. From my limited experience in SOT's, most are not very friendly at any stage across any strongish wind, due generally to the large slab sides that many seem to have. Sea kayaks are generally much better, but most of us paddle and fish from SOT's. On a SOT, you are going to be struggling in 20 knots straight into wind; cross wind at less than 15 knots.

In a sea kayak higher limits in every direction are possible. I have managed 1 km/hr in a sea kayak forward progress in a similar blow to this morning. The seas are another factor. Following are some of my observations of sea state (in relation to kayak fishing):

1. 5 - 8 knots.... A riffled sea surface. No whitecaps. No difficulties paddling in any direction in relation to the wind.

2. 9 - 11 knots....A more broken sea state, waves to 0.4 m, depending on fetch (the distance of water the wind is acting on), with _occasional_ whitecaps. SOT's will be slightly more difficult to maintain direction crosswind; upwind OK but a bit more effort required; downwind noticeable assistance from little 'surfing' rides .

3. 12 - 15 knots ....a broken sea state with _regular_ white caps and waves to 0.7 m, depending on fetch. Getting difficult to maintain directional control cross wind with rudder or without relying on edging/paddle steering strokes; upwind marked extra effort required; downwind considerable surfing runs and some correctional steering input.

4. 16 - 20 knots..._A mass of whitecaps_ and waves to 1.0 m. Very difficult cross wind; very slow upwind, downwind fast with longer wave rides, but probably requiring bracing skills.

5. 21 + knots...Go home, or to the nearest land and sort the car shuttle out later. Running downwind will require bracing to prevent capsizing as the kayak broaches off wave runs (surfing). Surfing skills will assist in leaning the SOT to prevent capsizing.

Good to hear of others' observations.

Trevor


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## Ado

Or simply buy a Wavewalker.


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## Bretto

I'd say over confidence plays a pretty big part in people getting into trouble. I took on my local this morning. I came runner-up. Still flood effected. Possibly the stupidest thing I've done in a kayak to date. Got into trouble in the first 60 seconds. No turning back. Went for a swim. Almost snapped the rods and worst still, my smokes got wet. I had a look around for bail out areas. No luck. The trip back took over an hour. Normally only takes 10 minutes. Fun times.


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## kayakone

BrettoQLD said:


> I'd say over confidence plays a pretty big part in people getting into trouble. I took on my local this morning. I came runner-up. Still flood effected. Possibly the stupidest thing I've done in a kayak to date. Got into trouble in the first 60 seconds. No turning back. Went for a swim....


Brett is no novice kayak fisherman. It takes a man with big balls to admit to such mistakes.

Thanks Brett for caring about passing on a timely warning, so others can learn.

Trevor


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## kayakone

Update and reminder for yakkers (players) in SE Qld.

Regarding kayaking safety, with sudden wind changes, and involving weather reading skills and appropriate awareness.

BOM Weather observations at Cape Moreton:

DATE / Time....Dir....Wind Speed...Gusts (knots)

07/05:30pm ..... N .......20............	25 
07/05:45pm .....SSW.......7 ...........	25 
07/06:00pm......SSW .....15...........	22 
07/06:02pm......SSW......17...........	30 
07/06:30pm......SSE.......23...........	35 
07/07:30pm......SSE.......34...........	41 
07/09:00pm...... SE.......38............44

Notes:
1. At 5.45 pm, note the direction change from N to SSW. What if your car was towards the SSW? :shock: 
2. At 6.02 pm, can you handle 30 knots in your SOT? Highly unlikely. They are crap in strong winds.
3. At 9 pm, what state would you be in if caught in a wind change to 44 knots. (that's 80 km/hr). My guess you'd be off your yak, it would be a long way away, and you'd be in deep shit!

Moral of the story ... learn to read weather forecasts and observations. Your life depends on it. If it looks marginal, go kayaking/fishing on another day, when the forecast is better.

Secondary to that, have all the safety skills and emergency equipment, just in case it all comes undone.

safe yakking all

trev


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## imtheman

it was the opposite this morning on the gold coast it was beautiful hot morning with a slight northerly - at about 2pm out of nowhere a change came from the south causing vigarous winds up to 50 knots it could blow a dog off its chain at the moment


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## dru

A couple of thoughts ...

Firstly it isn't just about making headway in big conditions. Ultimately my definition of "big" is that you need to run with the conditions. This provides two issues. 1 can you turn around? 2 where do you run to? What is plan B?

Turning around isn't so easy, big wind waves will want to have you broached and will want to keep you on that line. You may need to fight to turn downwind. If you aren't moving forward the rudder won't work. Occassionally we see posts with yakkers who want bigger rudders? Maybe the issue isnt the rudder. Sooner or later it won't work and you will be fully reliant on your paddle skillset. IMHO this applies for hobies too. Turning downwind in big conditions requires a solid skillset. Note also that wind waves running as a steep chop are probably the worst for this, worse even than huge swell in the deep blue. Moreton Bay conditions. I'm guessing PPB too.

Next issue is buddies. Most of us buddy up thinking it is safer for ME. But if the other bloke is thinking the same who is looking after who? Now OK there are situations where a novice might be able to help an experienced yakker . But with respect these big conditions aren't one of them. So your buddy having a similar skillset works if YOUR skillset is up to the conditions. If not... Well we have seen double fatalities, lets not add to that particular statistic. And there is an obvious ramification, if you are buddying up for safety how good is your skillset for assisting someone else as we'll as looking after yourself? Do you have an agreement for how often you are checking in?

We all like improving and testing our limits. But a predicted sudden change to completely over the top probably isn't the sort of big conditions to look for when testing those limits.


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## kayakone

dru said:


> A couple of thoughts ...
> 
> Firstly it isn't just about making headway in big conditions. Ultimately my definition of "big" is that you need to run with the conditions. This provides two issues. 1 can you turn around? 2 where do you run to? What is plan B?
> 
> Turning around isn't so easy, big wind waves will want to have you broached and will want to keep you on that line. You may need to fight to turn downwind. If you aren't moving forward the rudder won't work. Occassionally we see posts with yakkers who want bigger rudders? Maybe the issue isnt the rudder. Sooner or later it won't work and you will be fully reliant on your paddle skillset. IMHO this applies for hobies too. Turning downwind in big conditions requires a solid skillset. Note also that wind waves running as a steep chop are probably the worst for this, worse even than huge swell in the deep blue. Moreton Bay conditions. I'm guessing PPB too.
> 
> Next issue is buddies. Most of us buddy up thinking it is safer for ME. But if the other bloke is thinking the same who is looking after who? Now OK there are situations where a novice might be able to help an experienced yakker . But with respect these big conditions aren't one of them. So your buddy having a similar skillset works if YOUR skillset is up to the conditions. If not... Well we have seen double fatalities, lets not add to that particular statistic. And there is an obvious ramification, if you are buddying up for safety how good is your skillset for assisting someone else as we'll as looking after yourself? Do you have an agreement for how often you are checking in?
> 
> We all like improving and testing our limits. But a predicted sudden change to completely over the top probably isn't the sort of big conditions to look for when testing those limits.


Very good points Dru, particularly...

1. Having plan B. This is something Gee mentioned some time ago when caught in an strong unexpected wind change on LBG. 
In the conditions yesterday , if we were at Scarby out 2 km (and had we ignored all weather forecasts and turned our VHF radios off), to run with it would have put us heading 16 km to Sandstone Point or Bribie Island, all across open water with a fetch of over 50 kms. To say that the seas would have been colossal is an understatement.

2 "Sooner or later your rudder won't work and you will be fully reliant on your paddle skillset. IMHO this applies for Hobies too. Turning downwind in big conditions requires a solid skillset."
Couldn't agree more. "A solid skillset." But who amongst us has those skills? 
Also, as I said (whether you have the paddle skills or not), "...have all the safety skills and emergency equipment, just in case it all comes undone."

3. Buddy. Yes to all your points....a buddy with lower skills than you _will drag you down_. As well, very few, if any, SOT's have deck lines, to enable you to grab it from anywhere along it's length.

The main point of this thread though is about weather reading skills, both getting the forecasts and checking current actual observations. Do not underestimate the safety advantage of using VHF comms with Coastguard/VMR to check on both forecasts and observations. They are happy to help with any information that will warn boaters of such impending weather conditions (see example below).

A warning will be issued 'SECURITE' (on channel 16)
Securite messages (pronounced "say-cure-e-tay") generally prefix navigational safety messages such as weather reports or navigation hazard updates, for example: "Sécurité, sécurité, sécurité, all ships, all ships, all ships, this is Coast Radio Sydney, Coast Radio Sydney for a renewal of a strong wind warning. Please switch to channel VHF 67. Out." Further reading at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securite



kayakone said:


> Being able to read the seas is another safety factor in your favour. NOTE: To read sea state and estimate wind strength from it, you _must be looking upwind_.
> 
> Following are some of my observations of sea state (in relation to kayak fishing, particularly from SOT's):
> 
> 1. 5 - 8 knots.... A riffled sea surface. No whitecaps. No difficulties paddling in any direction in relation to the wind.
> 
> 2. 9 - 11 knots....A more broken sea state, waves to 0.4 m, depending on fetch (the distance of water the wind is acting on), with _occasional_ whitecaps. SOT's will be slightly more difficult to maintain direction crosswind; upwind OK but a bit more effort required; downwind noticeable assistance from little 'surfing' rides.
> 
> 3. 12 - 15 knots ....a broken sea state with _regular_ white caps and waves to 0.7 m, depending on fetch. Getting difficult to maintain directional control cross wind with rudder or without relying on edging/paddle steering strokes; upwind marked extra effort required; downwind considerable surfing runs and some correctional steering input.
> 
> 4. 16 - 20 knots..._A mass of whitecaps_ and waves to 1.0 m. Very difficult cross wind; very slow upwind, downwind fast with longer wave rides, but probably requiring bracing skills.
> 
> 5. 21 + knots...Go home, or to the nearest land and sort the car shuttle out later. Running downwind will require bracing to prevent capsizing as the kayak broaches off wave runs (surfing). Surfing skills will assist in leaning the SOT to prevent capsizing.
> 
> Trevor


trev


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## Snappahead

Good information here - I am definitely no authority, and don't have too much to add other than a saying that I used to hear from pilots (and most recently heard in the context of the tragic vintage aircraft crash on the Sunshine Coast a couple of weeks back)

_"I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was up in the air, than up in the air wishing I was on the ground"_

Doesn't take too much modifying to make it relevant to kaykaking...


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## CanuckChubbs

Or, just buy an Outback and your problems will be solved. :lol:

I was out on Botany last year, went from Dolls Point up to the oil wharf. It was like glass all day...as predicted. In 20 minutes, a very strong southerly came up and turned the bay into mush. By that time all I could do is very slowly peddle back through the ~1m waves and whitecaps. If it was not for the handles on the side, rudder, and the stability of the Hobie, I would have tipped. Nevertheless, I felt like Cpt. Ahab being dragged around by Mobi, waves, water and my screaming fueling my adrenaline. Just glad I don't have a skinny SOT. 8)


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## dru

Hey Canuck, the Hobie is very stable. Like many fishing SOT designs that work a bit like this - Primary and secondary stability are kind of merged. Major stability up to the point that they go over. Then they go, not much you can do to stop it. So as long as you are within that tipping point, very good. But it can lead to a feeling of invincibility. And when the conditions push over that point you end up in a world that wasn't expected. It isnt at all Hobie specific, much more to do with hull stability design, and the hobie is something of an architype. These hull designs tend to compromise hull speed. So Hobie have solved this with the mirage drive. Bloody powerful. Hull design and power, together a wonderful combination.

My swing fits that hull design philosophy, but emphatically when conditions push into hairy I want to be in my SIK which is only 54cms wide. As the white caps start curling and the wind waves are acting like surf, I want a paddle in my hands. And im hoping that it wasnt too long since I practiced brace strokes. Even if my go forward was coming from a powerful mirage drive.

There are better alternatives to an oasis when the conditions push well beyond comfortable into "this is getting serious mum". My apologies in advance for having my "serious hat" on, but there have been fatalities and no individual nor any yak design is invincible.

We all love our yak choices. This is appropriate. But let's avoid hubris on a safety thread.


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## kayakone

Another wind change. Another warning.

Redcliffe (BOM)

Date/Time.......Direction...Wind...Gusts

17/04:00pm - - - - - N........ 5........ 6

17/04:12pm - - - - - S ........15...... 25

17/04:30pm - - - - - S........ 23...... 30

17/05:00pm - - - - SSE.......28....... 34

Note directional change. Note the wind speed change.

How would _you_ be, _if_ you got it wrong?

Weather reading is a vital part of safe kayaking.


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## CET

Oh I get it. Buddy is some sort of foreign language for a "mate".

Pete


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## intrepid

dunno if you are being facetious, but the concept of the buddy system has been around for a very long time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_system



> In adventurous or dangerous activities, where the buddies are often equals, the main benefit of the system is improved safety; each may be able to prevent the other becoming a casualty or rescue the other in a crisis.
> 
> When this system is used as part of training or the induction of newcomers to an organization, the less experienced buddy learns more quickly from close and frequent contact with the experienced buddy than when operating alone.


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## kayakone

kayakone said:


> Weather reading is a vital part of safe kayaking.


May I add, _that doesn't mean checking Windguru or WillieWeather the day before your launch_. * That data is a forecast*, and being 12 + hours old, *it is out of date*. Weather is a complex, constantly changing phenomenon, and old news is useless news. You might as well read last week's newspaper.

Use the latest available forecasts, AND, even more importantly, the ACTUAL observations closest to your area, _just before your decision to launch_. You can use BOM observations to check the proximity and speed of approach of a wind/weather change.

If you make serious efforts to understand forecasting and observations, you will improve your safety margins in kayaking significantly. The BOM site is a good starting point.

Also, as Rose has recently stated: "Training is an important part of safety." In other words, add skills training, and once again your safety margin increases.


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## troutfisher

Our weather is generally fairly predictable down here in Tassie, I find that looking at weather maps in the local paper is a good adjunct to weather reports. If there is a drty big high circling all of Tassie you can be sure the weather is going to be fabulous.


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## Rose

Just an observation on buddies here; if conditions deteriorate badly enough, your buddy, or buddies, may well be unable to do more than keep themselves upright and heading in a useful direction. Buddies can only be depended upon in reasonably good conditions, at which time they're a really big help. Not when they're fighting for their own survival though. Neither will you be able to help your buddy at such a time, so if you're caught out in the kind of conditions none of us want to see at first hand, with a novice buddy, you may find yourself in a position where you can't save yourself and help your buddy as well. Hard to imagine how bad that would feel. 

Oh and, for those who thought the buddy system was some sort of gay jest...it's a standard part of kayak competence training. Always has been.


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