# Live Baiting for Kings- Little help on leaders please



## Levi (Nov 24, 2008)

Afternoon all,

I finally got around to getting a cheap set up for live baiting.. although dreaming of a Penn Torque etc i decided a cheap set up first, get used to it, break it then upgrade  Seems to have worked in the past. So i now have a nice Pflueger Salt 70 size. Matched it to a 15-24kg Shimano blue water, and fitted out with 65lb braid.

I had planned on going heavy handed with 100lb wind on black magic leader, then a variety of rigs depending on the bait being squid or fishes.....deep or shallow etc.

The wiki link on live baiting has been gold, and i noticed a lot of people are fishing substantially lighter, 40-50lb leader.

So, can anyone through me some tips on the 'optimal' leader to kick of my big king hunt? i know it will vary in shallow, deep water etc, but is 100lb over kill to begin with? will it affect the interest of tentative fishes?

PS- If ANYONE wants to head out with me sydney area over the next 5 days, i'm free so PM me... thinking botany, malabar, Cloey, shark point etc.. but i can veture OTB to the north too.

Cheers, 
Levi


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## paulb (Nov 12, 2006)

I think it might vary depending on location and technique. Presumedly your fishing off the yak, what's the max drag you think you can handle, without going overboard - then double that to get your braid strength. Leader wise, a decent fluorocarbon in 40 - 60lb, unless your planning on locking everything down and letting your leader take the brunt of the punishment.


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

What he said.

Also remember that when you get a snag, you'll probably have to cut the line.
I use 40 to 60 flouro.

Catching the bloody livebait is what you need to worry about


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## paulthetaffy (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Levi,

I started out with 30lb braid / 40lb leader for reefy / rocky areas and found that was plenty for 90% of fish. Then I started fishing longy and got dusted several times in a row, so upped to 40lb braid / 80lb leader at the start of this summer. I know we've had a lean kingy summer, but I've seen a dramatic decline in the number of fish I've caught since stepping up, In fact on many days I've caught more on plastics on 20lb-40lb leaders where I also have a livebait/fresh squid down on the heavy gear. So I'm now going back to 40lb for livebait and 20lb for plastics.

Like most people who start chasing Kings, I thought that a heavier leader would lead to less bust-offs, but in truth it just leads to less fish. If you hook an unstoppable he will find the reef whether you're on 40lb or 100lb as you just can't put enough pressure on them from a yak. I'll concede that a 100lb leader might take more of a beating against the reef than 40lb but the odds are against you in either case. After watching the likes of paulb, MrX, Southerly, et el catching big kings on lighter lines, I now appreciate that technique is the important factor. Towing a hooked fish out to deeper water and keeping him constantly moving, rather than trying to fight him vertically, will stack the odds far greater in your favour than having a heavy leader.

I'll be out at longy this saturday weather permitting. I fished botany last weekend and moli point was devioid of kings. I'm hearing reports of big fish in numbers around north head and the main harbour though.

Paul


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## CanuckChubbs (May 2, 2010)

Hi Levi,

I just read your posts. A couple of us fished Port Hacking (Yowie Bay area) and there were no kings, but plenty of reds. I also fished Malabar today instead of Rose Bay due to technical difficulties and got nothing. I used 30braid/40mono with pilly and squid and nothing. I will be fishing Clontarf this Saturday.


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## Levi (Nov 24, 2008)

Hi all,

THANKS for the great feedback. I still will be using my light gear predominately (20lb braid to 30lb or 20lb fluro) for SP flicking etc, but i will drag the heavy gear about for livies. 
I think i will stick with the 65lb braid, as i doubt that will play much havoc on the hook up/interest rate of the fish, but i will drop the 100lb to a more realistic 40lb-50lb or so i think, especially after the comments above. I have perfected the PR knot now, and although easy to do it is time consuming and Keza has a good point, i wont be breaking that rig off easily on 100lb leader, something lighter than the heavy braid might at least give me a slim chance to have it break at the rig knot. if not, i wont be bothered with a PR out at sea.

One thing i am worried about comes from Paul B technique and Paul Taffy comments- i LOVE my paddle yak, but fighting a big king, and trying to paddle ot deeper water is going to be a challenge and a half, no need to preach to me about the prowess of a Hobie...  i already respect it, but i will try to work out a technique when (if) i find one.

I know there are some VERY good kings in/around botany ATM, but very sensitive to tide and time i am told. I have a mate who is going to help with some tuition from a stinker... apparently 1m+ specimens... if this goes to plans i'll be trying to replicate it via yak. Unfortunately i am only available weekdays this week, but i will keep an eye out and see i can sneak something in before then. if anyone is keen just post or PM me, i'd be interested to joining. i will post on NSW trips if i plan properly my departure.

Again, many thanks.


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

Although being able to peddle to deeper water would be great, it's not essential.
A couple of tricks to have up your sleeve are that the harder you pull, the harder they pull, so if you go softly they don't usually head for the reef.
If they do head for the reef and you feel your line in the rock, release the pressure of flick the bail arm over and they think they are free and come off the reef.
Nothing is guaranteed but always good to have a plan.


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## paulthetaffy (Jan 27, 2010)

Hey Occy what time are you launching Thursday and are you collecting any livies first?


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## Levi (Nov 24, 2008)

Tides are not great, but i am planning tomorrow if anyone is keen. Nothing crazy, just a ~5.45am launch, squid session for 20mins in Gordons, then out to WCI. thinking a little later could be ok as its heading onto the high, and i have had more luck out there on the rising tide... closer to high.

Next thursday (would that be the 7th you mean), might be a goer, i will see what i can do... will PM you closer to the date. thanks foe the invite (and the description).


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## Levi (Nov 24, 2008)

Oops, just realised you mean WC in the harbour i think.. not off Cloey....... my bad


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## MrX (Feb 7, 2008)

What the Pauls and Keza said.



> Levi,
> "One thing i am worried about comes from Paul B technique and Paul Taffy comments- i LOVE my paddle yak, but fighting a big king, and trying to paddle ot deeper water is going to be a challenge and a half&#8230;"


I don't think the movement technique is limited to hobies. It's a strategy that comes from stinkboaters targeting kings around shallow reefs/structure/cliffs - firing up the engine and dragging the fish into deeper water for the fight. Paddle yaks can do the same, with the rod in the holder. Saw Robson Green (Extreme Fishing) head out with the hard-core steath yakkers off South Africa recently. He asked them what he should do if he hooked something big on the troll. The answer: "paddle your fugging arse off, dude!"

You won't be able to get your rod out of the holder with a big king on solid drag anyway, so you may as well start paddling.

I'm not convinced on the benefits of 50lb-plus braid and 60lb-plus leaders from a kayak (leaving yakattack's legendary expoits aside). I can't exert that much drag, and for me, it leads to less fish, and big hassles when you snag the bottom- for a marginal increase in abrasion resistance. If abrasion resistance is your go, try wire (Murd swears by it).


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## Levi (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks All, some great commentary.
Sounds like a good idea to drop the leader strength, will look into the 40-60lb bracket i think (the latter first i think)

Do you really think a 65lb braid will have any negative impact vs say a 40-50lb? Personally i can't foresee this having much impact on action or presentation, especially considering i will have a 3m+ wind on leader, connected via a PR knot.

One other Q- Do you guys leave the drag light/almost nothing to allow the fish to take before striking/setting hook then apply the pressure? This is my preferred method when LB'ing..... whats the consensus here?
thanks,


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## paulthetaffy (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Levi,

Personally I don't see much of a difference between 30lb and 60lb braid in terms of visibiity or presentation for livebaiting. I think it's the leader that makes the difference here, especially if it is a longer one. Are you using fluro or mono for your wind-on? I use about 1.5m of fluro down to a snap swivel (to which I attach my sinker and a 1-1.5m fluro trace). I'm finding that if I have the braid-to-fluro leader longer than 1.5 (thus becoming a wind-on) it curls where it's been sat on the reel between trips. That may be a property of fluro over mono, which is why I ask.

Side question for anyone reading this - why is it that we pay attention to what we put on the last couple of metres of our rig but we are perfectly happy putting highly visible coloured braid above it? Do we think that fish can only see the last couple of metres?

As for the drag question, techniques vary depending on your reel choice, fighting style, and importantly, hook choice. If you're using circle hooks then whatever drag you use it needs to be heavy enough to allow the fish to hook itself - but that doesn't require much drag in practice. I use a baitrunner version of the Okuma Salina II so I have the main drag set at fighting level but have have baitrunner on too, set heavy enough to allow the fish to hook itself, but still allowing line out so I don't get tipped - maybe 0.5-1kg of drag. When I get a take and the reel screams I just need to grab it and wind to take it out of baitrunner mode and I'm on. Lever drag O/H's offer a similar ability and I know a couple of guys who use them for livebaiting. Personally I wouldn't have it set to fighting drag (without a baitrunner / leverdrag) unless I was fishing with rod-in-hand as I would be too paranoid about being tipped.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

paulthetaffy said:


> Side question for anyone reading this - why is it that we pay attention to what we put on the last couple of metres of our rig but we are perfectly happy putting highly visible coloured braid above it? Do we think that fish can only see the last couple of metres?


I think it's about disassociating the braid from the bait. Brightly coloured braid allows us (the human) to be able to see the braid easily and discern any minute movements with ease. But a good length of fluoro helps to disassociate the brightly coloured string from the piece of food they (the fish) are about to scoff. Thus spooking less fish. Think along the lines of spooking fish with a fly line shadow. You want to be able to disassociate from the unusual object floating around in the water.


> As for the drag question, techniques vary depending on your reel choice, fighting style, and importantly, hook choice. If you're using circle hooks then whatever drag you use it needs to be heavy enough to allow the fish to hook itself - but that doesn't require much drag in practice. I use a baitrunner version of the Okuma Salina II so I have the main drag set at fighting level but have have baitrunner on too, set heavy enough to allow the fish to hook itself, but still allowing line out so I don't get tipped - maybe 0.5-1kg of drag. When I get a take and the reel screams I just need to grab it and wind to take it out of baitrunner mode and I'm on. Lever drag O/H's offer a similar ability and I know a couple of guys who use them for livebaiting. Personally I wouldn't have it set to fighting drag (without a baitrunner / leverdrag) unless I was fishing with rod-in-hand as I would be too paranoid about being tipped.


I agree wholeheartedly with this. Light drags on strike make life easier. There was a palmy video a little while back where they hooked up and nearly rolled off the yak under heavy drag. Made really funny watching. Personal experience with the cobe at SWR which took a bait in a holder while i was fighting another, is that the light drag set the hook but when i pushed it to strike after taking it out of the holder, i couldn't sustain the drag pressure and nearly fell out. I had to back it right back off again.


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## Levi (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks Paul and Jon, Appreciate it.

Sadly i didn't grab a bait runner, but have the Plfueger Salt, spin type. 70 size. In retrospect an O/H or bait runner would have been a nice choice, hindsight is 20-20.
The drag is pretty easy to screw down quick form my tests (i know when the sh!t hits the fan on a big take it will be different), so i will set a light drag of a couple of Kg to allow the hook set (circles indeed), and then try to wind it up after the strike...

This however is all speculation until it happens, then i think it might be a whole different story!!!

Next week i am testing the gear from a stinker, and the yak, so between to 2 i should be able to work something out!

Thanks again,

PS- Agree with Jon on the above, I fly fish alot, and use anywhere from 7-12ft leader, i think the most important bit is the leader, so i will stick with the 65lb braid. I am not certain on the coiling yet, as i have not tested the heavier line. On my light gear i have the leader commencing from 6' above bail arm, so no probs there.


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## Wrassemagnet (Oct 17, 2007)

All good info and I can't really comment as I've never caught a king on my live-baiting gear yet (a couple of jew though). For livies, I use an overhead reel as it's easier to downrig with I think, 40lb braid tied by PR knot to 6m 40lb jinkai mono, then a 150lb BB snap swivel then 1.5m 40lb fluorocarbon. I only go heavier when Jigging, 50lb braid and 60 to 80lb Fluorocarbon. Never landed a king after they've started the rub off even with the heaviest leaders but I've never tried wire. I do think I get less bites on the heavier leaders. My best kings have come on soft plastics, 20lb braid with 20lb FC leader.


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