# Paddlers shoulder



## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

I have just been talking to a member who has occasioned a shoulder injury that is very painful while paddling, and in fact will stop you from paddling , its called a Rotator Cuff injury, now whilst i am not a doctor or a physio, i do have a lot of first hand knowledge on kayaking injuries and treatments learned through the school of hard knocks, and associations with 100s of paddlers over the years . While i was giving my very best advice to this member on exercises to do to ease the pain and stop the irritation so he can get back to paddling , it came up in our conversation about his paddle length. Now being used to racing paddlers , i just assumed that everyone knew the size of paddle that they should be using to keep them i njury free. He was using a paddle that was far too long for him and had been trying to lift his stroke rate so he could travel faster . I would reccomend that paddles do not exceed 6ft 11inches or 211 cms in paddle length , regardless of how tall you are ,and thats measured from tip of blade to tip of blade , by using the longer paddlels you are increasing the strain on your shoulder joints, as they are much harder to pull through the water .If on occasions a racing paddler goes up to a longer paddle for a certain race or bnoat size ,[as like fisherman and rods , we all have about a dozen or more ] he will automatically slow down his stroke rate to compensate , because there is no worse feeling to a dedicated paddler than a shoulder twinge . i hope this advice is of help to everyone and keeps us all fit and injury free and on the water.


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## Guest (May 6, 2008)

I have a damned reoccurring rotator cuff injury that was actually started because of paddling in crazy conditions. Its been with me for 4 years now, coming and going whenever it feels like it. That very injury is what led me to discovering Hobie mirage kayaks. I empathise with anyone who has the same sort of injury. Its outright painful when it wants to be, and really very stiff at best. I wish I knew how to get rid of it, because it gives me curry way too often.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Lazybugger said:


> Baz,
> 
> Does that length take into proper account the width of a kayak? I haven't got the greatest stroke in the world and a crappy paddle but often find myself hitting the sides of the yak with my knuckles a couple of times a trip. I'd imagine something as wide as my tempo would need something longer than a narrow adventure for instance, just to get reasonable clearance.


Scott, you dont need to extend the length of your paddle to stop hitting the gunwale of your yak , what you need is more body rotation , basically the paddling stroke should be initiated by the back and full torso, and the upper body should rotate . Imagine there is a steel rod running down vertically through the centre of the top of your head and coming out your bum , your body should ideally rotate round that rod , but as your bum and hips are held stationary to balance , the twist is initiated at approx the waist , and your upper body rotates from one side to the other and acts like a big spring , thus getting power down to the paddle head , if you do this , you wont hit the gunnwale as much , but mate , we all hit the yak like that from time to time . But its better to have a few hits of the yak than have rotator cuff injury , i have had it , and i dont want it again .


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## ArWeTherYet (Mar 25, 2007)

Just measured mine and it is 2300. Its a reasonable good quality carbon paddle (Resolution) and hasn't got a very large paddle shape on the ends.
I couldnt imagine using a smaller paddle, I actually thought it was too small to begin with. :?

I'm sure the damage caused by 25 years of plumbing will out way any damage caused by 14 mths of paddling any ways.  :lol:

I would be interested to know what the different types of paddles do and what is the best type for our sport. Unfortunately too many yakers opt out and buy cheap alloy paddles that are heavy and hard to use.


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

QlpoOTFBWSZTWY0MQPIAAC9fgAAQUAWAEpekGwo////wMAEUy0NTU9RpkJptJmp6CGjTRp6J6gaqfhNT1TI9QABoZDI9Q2oNU/JEaJ6nqNNAAaAD1A2fWQiDy5mqSBKKSv84NZ4WFrXOaL8ndUMrSxnBBFdqlGJ3GZTlJQJ5LOWm162UqhtgPLMBlnqYdqoNFHcxiTyAs3S4X6CVS4TZj9dTuwClOn0ZwSnEy6kG18BZAtYVXiEiOsXWNyYV689dqFo+qWABE2HfOIvzPuggbkJzUtK1ZBuIcNGV6cwpDElUdKQFTQXgJos4bKsbLTRlMt9cKgo5ekTFU3VPfGYkbzc2QcSriIS3RhN1qJYhQ7lUCbECgYWKQzvBJi99K4GcRG0ZM1mul0Sbu9C4/WKLEfxdyRThQkI0MQPI


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## wedgetail (Mar 27, 2008)

Hi bazz 
I understand your problem I see this type of problem 2or 3 times a week at my clinic, the standard treatment for rotor cuff injury is rest and imobilization .Not good news for a dedicated Yak Paddler Physio therapy will help, you also might look at complimentary therapies as well such as acupuncture and Bowen therapy . This is not meant as an advertisement for my practice . but just general information on rotor cuff treatments . the best way is to not incur them in the first place. A s you said the correct paddle length and technique is most important.
A rotor cuff tear will take between 12 16 weeks to heal because it is a avascular tissue (lives in blood rich environment ) this makes them a nasty injury to have for any sport.
Cheers Mark


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks for the advice mate. Does this stay the same if you use a very small blade? The reason I ask is that a long shaft is really the only option for paddling an outback long distances in case of mechanical problems. With a smaller blade you would not get the speed but would be able to get back to shore again, and without the load. Does this sound right?
Cheers
Mike


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## Flump (Apr 17, 2006)

Shoulder and back injuries are both wierd, painful and long lasting. I had to cancel the SWR trip because of something I did to my shoulder, wierd thing was I could paddle fine with no pain at all I just could lift anything so couldn't even get the yak on the roof racks! It had been getting progressively worse for the preceeding 9 months so I trotted off to the docs to get X-Rays and an ultrasound. Got the results......absolutely nothing wrong apparently, so why can't I lift a cup of coffee with my arm stretched out in front of me then :shock: :? . Doc prescribes physio and I think that the threat was enough as all of a sudden it's gone!!!! Bizarre :shock: :?:

I use an el cheapo paddle and that probably doesn't help matters but I don't think that the injury was related to paddling. Advice I was told was that the correct length for a paddle was if the middle joint of your fingers wraps over the top of the blade when it's stood on end. Anyone know if this is correct?


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

fishydude said:


> Thanks for the advice mate. Does this stay the same if you use a very small blade? The reason I ask is that a long shaft is really the only option for paddling an outback long distances in case of mechanical problems. With a smaller blade you would not get the speed but would be able to get back to shore again, and without the load. Does this sound right?
> Cheers
> Mike


Yes mate , your right , as i said in my original post , kayak paddlers who race the boats have a quiver of paddles , i do have one 7ft one inch paddle , but it was specially made for me for the sea kayak , and it has a much smaller blade ,i should have enumerated this in the original post , if you need a longer paddle because of hull width , cut down the blade size , but dont try and rate too high with the longer shaft , cut down your rating speed.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Flump , how are you mate , hows sunny Queensland , lucky bar#[email protected] , mate thats a pretty good rule of thumb , unless your very tall , and then the shafts start getting a bit too long , and although you may be tall , you would normally still have the same strenghth and shoulder configuration as a smaller paddler , so thats why most of the good paddlers put a ceiling on the length of paddle , and very few go over 7 ft one inch , most paddlers use a 6 ft 11 inch paddle , that shoulder pain mate sounds very much like rotator cuff injury where you have trouble lifting your arm above shoulder height , anyway Flumpie the sun up there in Gods country will cure anything , thats what Richo tells me :lol: :lol:


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

wedgetail said:


> Hi bazz
> 
> A rotor cuff tear will take between 12 16 weeks to heal because it is a avascular tissue (lives in blood rich environment ) this makes them a nasty injury to have for any sport.
> Cheers Mark


Mark , thanks for the input , sounds like you have a succesful masage therapy clinic there , gee the Bowen Technique works well dosnt it , a very strange technique , but gee it gets results , good onya Mark


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## Billybob (Aug 29, 2005)

I've been using a 230cm Resolution paddle for the last 7 years or so without any problem

Suits the Swing.

It's a fairly narrow blade.

I 'm not a high rate paddler but get a good clip on with a long steady stroke.

I think the trick is to warm up before going out. Before any trip offshore I do (at home) 40 or 50 swivels (as if you've got a broom across your shoulders), 40 or 50 arm stretches (try to touch the ceiling with one arm, then the other) and 40 odd pushups and the same amount of touch-toes.

I make a point, also, of warming up on the water. By that I mean I start my paddling slow and easy and work into a steady stroke over a 10 minute period.


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## Flump (Apr 17, 2006)

Hey Bazz, cheers mate for that bit of info, alls good in the land of sunshine  . I think my paddle is 220cm which I think is around 7ft. Strange thing about me is I'm 6ft 1 but have an arm span of around 6ft 6 which I think is fairly unusual (yes my wife has called me a monkey for that one :lol: :shock: ) so using the theory I've been told I think the calculated paddle length was around 235 to 240cm, which I thought was a bit daft at the time as no paddles in the shop were that long. The bloke in the shop mentioned the words custom and expensive at which point I politely made my exit!

Great advice about warming up too Billybob, I reckon pretty much everyone else I've seen go out never does that.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Yeah Flump , glad you didnt get the custom paddle made , although any reputable paddle maker would have said shit what do you want that for , pole pushing ??, yeah , Billybob is right on the money there, no doubt about him , he knows what hes doing , i dont race anymore , but before every race , you would see 80 or so guys and girls going through their stretching routines to warm up all the muscles and tendons , so its a great idea and will help to keep you on the water , this is so important to us kayak fishermen , as if we injure a shoulder or wrist , we are out of the kayak and so out of fishing , not good believe me , i am injured at the moment with a torn achilles tgendon , and it is absolutely killing me not being able to get out on the water , and its a funny thing , but when your injured it is the time you get the best weather.


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks Bazz, I haven't actually got an Outback paddle yet for long distances but will have to get one before I attempt any Kangaroo Island hops. ( :shock: get it? kangaroo...Hop....I kill me :lol: :lol: ) Sigh...guess I'll have to catch the ferry. I hope they don't mind me trolling of the back. ;-) 
Cheers
Mike


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

Billybob said:


> I think the trick is to warm up before going out. Before any trip offshore I do (at home) 40 or 50 swivels (as if you've got a broom across your shoulders), 40 or 50 arm stretches (try to touch the ceiling with one arm, then the other) and 40 odd pushups and the same amount of touch-toes.


Crikeys I reckon if that was mandatory procedure before paddling then AKFF would have a lot fewer members!


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## L3GACY (Sep 2, 2007)

Davey G said:


> Billybob said:
> 
> 
> > I think the trick is to warm up before going out. Before any trip offshore I do (at home) 40 or 50 swivels (as if you've got a broom across your shoulders), 40 or 50 arm stretches (try to touch the ceiling with one arm, then the other) and 40 odd pushups and the same amount of touch-toes.
> ...


Agreed, 40 push ups is one thing... 40 touch toes... well... I can't even reach my bloody toes once! :lol:

Very good thing to be doing though Billybob. Everyone one should warm up somehow.


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## Billybob (Aug 29, 2005)

I must admit I tweeked the touch-toes numbers a bit.

Twenty's more like it.


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## Cuda (Sep 18, 2006)

Hah, nevermind the ol "paddlers shoulder", pedalers groin is much more painful folks and I have a severe case right now after pedaling around all morning chasing doggie / spotted mackeral and tuna. I'm going back out in around an hour, so I hope the missus isn't wanting any hanky panky tonight, coz the body might be a bit tender down in those parts :shock: :lol: 
Good thing I can paddle sometimes too, to relieve the pain a bit :roll: :roll: :roll:   :evil:


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## manta30 (Mar 15, 2008)

Billybob said:


> I think the trick is to warm up before going out. Before any trip offshore I do (at home) 40 or 50 swivels (as if you've got a broom across your shoulders), 40 or 50 arm stretches (try to touch the ceiling with one arm, then the other) and 40 odd pushups and the same amount of touch-toes.


I agree with Billybob.

I have played and coached a lot of baseball and one of the most common injuries in that sport is to do with rotator cuff damage. Warming up and stretching the shoulders helps heaps to avoid this problem.

The stretches shown at the below site are fairly common in baseball and will help to warm up your shoulders:
http://www.thestretchinghandbook.com/ar ... seball.php

I have also found Bowen therapy very good for shoulder injuries


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## bushwoodboy (Oct 5, 2006)

Had surgery for a rotator cuff injury, torn tendons ect
Due to a rather nasty skimboard accident  
Result, 12months off work & paddling.
10 months of intensive physio & gym rehab included in that.
Shoulder is probably 95% right & I believe the paddling helps it.
Physio believes this is the case also.
But would not let me near a kayak for twelve months.
Spent many months early in the rehab doing very light weights
with techniques designed to strengthen the smaller muscles that support the rotator cuff.
Then larger weights to build muscle mass & strength at the end. 
I'm not recommending anyone race out and have surgery
because I really didn't have a choice if I wanted to work as a tiler again.
But a good Physio is probably a good place to start, if you are having problems.
Their a cruel bunch who will rejoice in every pain riddled bead of sweat that appears on your 
furrowed brow during your recovery, but mine sure new his stuff.
Cheers Mal
BTW I have a really cheap alloy paddle. What should I look at upgrading to?


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Mal , in your case , i would definately go for a short paddle say round 6 ft 11 inch , and keep it light with a glass shaft , if you can afford it , carbon fibre all the way through is the best way to go there not cheap ,could cost around $250 but neither is surgery as you have found out . i use a BLADE on my Quest , thats one of those propeller paddles with the scooped edges in carbon fibre , others may better be able to tell you what brand , because mine are all custom made from my racing days , but i definately keep them on the shorter side , and use a 6ft 11 inch paddle myself all the time, and have no worries hitting the sides of the kayak because of body rotation .Unless you have a Hobie , your shoulders are what keep us on the water , thats why one of our members of this forum asked me to do this thread .


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## wedgetail (Mar 27, 2008)

Billybob has hit the nail on the head we all need to do a worm up and stretches this dos,t mean we just lift the yak of the racks ;-) .
don't forget the cool down at the end of the trip as well this is important as well helps clear the muscles of lactic acid .
and dehydrate our body's as well 1 sports drink for the electrolytes and then water. of course some Ozzy Blokes believe fish fornicate in water therefore they only drink beer due to its pure nature (coopers of course) :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Cheers Mark


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## bushwoodboy (Oct 5, 2006)

bazzoo said:


> Mal , in your case , i would definately go for a short paddle say round 6 ft 11 inch , and keep it light with a glass shaft , if you can afford it , carbon fibre all the way through is the best way to go there not cheap ,could cost around $250 but neither is surgery as you have found out .


Thanks Baz, It' not something I've paid enough attention to. I will measure the old one for comparisons sake after work this afternoon and start my search for a newy.And yes the bill hurt nearly as much as the injury  
Cheers Mal.


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## Billybob (Aug 29, 2005)

Oops, wrong thread.


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## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

Both of my paddles are 230cm. I've got a narrow blade paddle that I use in windy conditions and a wider blade paddle that I use most of the time. I definitely noticed the increased joint strain with the wide blade. I paddled too hard and too far when I first started using it and I got tendonitis in both elbows. Billy Bob hit it on the screws; warm up before paddling. I now warm up and stretch for several minutes before paddling and I no longer have the tendonitis problems.

I can't go less than 230cm for a couple of reasons. For one thing; I've got an X-Factor. The X has just about the widest beam of any kayak on the market. Because of my back injury I can't do that torso rotation that Bazzoo described. I have to keep my torso relatively stable and use my shoulders. I know that this isn't proper technique, but I'm not paddling in the Olympics. My technique enables me to troll for hours without hurting my back. If I had to choose between hurting my shoulder and messing up my back again, I'd go with the shoulder. At least you can walk with a bum wing :lol: Paddling actually helps my back by strengthening the core muscles. I've seen more improvement in the last three months of paddling than I got from 8 months of physical therapy. Maybe I got more out of it because I enjoy the paddling more. ;-)


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## Billybob (Aug 29, 2005)

'Top Kayaker' has just posted an article update on paddle selection:

http://www.topkayaker.net:80/KayakData/ ... hoice.html


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## ArWeTherYet (Mar 25, 2007)

Thanks for the advise Bazz.  
I was struggling with a long paddle on my sea kayak. I remember this post and figured what the problem was. ;-) 
Although I dont seem to have much of a problem with it on the swing the narrower and lower sea kayak was too much hard work. I got the same brand, because I like that style, just 6" shorter (2140mm), made a huge difference.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

caught2 said:


> This morning had a sore should but launched anyway - got a severe leg cramp and came in because of it but on the drive home my shoulder has become very painful indeed - neck seems to be involved too. Certainly hope it doesn't keep me off the water for too long......but it is not feeling good at all - will have to get a friend to help me get Chicca off the car tomorrow
> 
> Had something similar once before (but on the other shoulder) and Bowen therapy was magic - 5 sessions fixed it. I sure hope it helps this time!!!!!! Meantime...glass of wine, dinner and anti-inflammatories (ibuprofen). Grrrrrrr Getting older sux......big time.
> 
> Kim


Yep , i can vouch for that Kim Getting old aint what its cracked up to be , the Bowen Technique is excellent , so if it worked before it will again . you may have been doing quite a lot of paddling at Forster , shallow water , and not realised how much you had done, and if that is the case and you used tha Hobie Paddle , it may have had too much flex for you which is not conducive to healthy shoulders , prolly a light massage may help as well if you can find a genuinely good massuse . I'm not talking to old age anymore , we used to be friends , but after what he has been doing to me lately ,,,,,, no way


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## L3GACY (Sep 2, 2007)

bazzoo said:


> prolly a light massage may help as well if you can find a genuinely good massuse


I can vouch for remedial massage, good stuff. Reccomending Bowen therapy is interesting, will have to have a chat to wedgetail about it at the boat show.


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## Safa (Aug 4, 2006)

Hi,

I startd getting some shoulder problems (not serious) just a niggle now and again .
I wanted a 2 piece paddle purely for convience when travelling etc and ended up bringing a paddle in from South Africa,due to the exchange rate i think It was reasonable including postage.
This paddle can be adjusted to different lengths and The owner is more than willing to offer some professional advise .
I got the M333 which is similar to there M3 on the web site and apparently a new web site will be up soon. 
The paddle arrived on monday so I cant give my oppinion as yet but will see how it goes over the week end.

http://www.maxpaddle.com/


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## Sparkie (Jul 8, 2008)

I had a frozen shoulder once. It is very weird. As long as I did not try to lift it above shoulder height it was fine.
The minute I tried to lift it higher it hurt like hell.
being a nutter I tried to ignore the pain and figured it will come good in a day or two. After much pleading(using a nice word here  ) from SWMBO I relented and went and went to the physio. About 4x 1/2h sessions later and it was good as gold. 
The physio put this zapping machine on my shoulder which caused the muscles to spasm and it worked better than anything my wife tried.
Now I would have to say for certain that if your shoulder is sore and it hurts to raise it above shoulder height...._*SEE A PHYSIOTHERAPIST IMMEDIATELY!!*_

PS I will definitely stretch my shoulder and back muscles before I start paddling (when I get my Feel Free Moken that is)


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## Southerly (Apr 20, 2007)

Great thread Bazzoo thank you. You really know what you are talking about.

I dislocated my should, snapped my A-C joint and tore a few other ligamnets in the shoulder on my MTB about 4 weeks ago and had an operation on it 3 weeks ago so at least it looks like a should again thanks to some kevlar fibers holding it all together. So I am learning lots about shoulders and shoulder pain. No idea when I will be on the water or fishing again, physio does not even start for another month     

David


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## Big D (Apr 28, 2007)

Southerly said:


> Great thread Bazzoo thank you. You really know what you are talking about.
> 
> I dislocated my should, snapped my A-C joint and tore a few other ligamnets in the shoulder on my MTB about 4 weeks ago and had an operation on it 3 weeks ago so at least it looks like a should again thanks to some kevlar fibers holding it all together. So I am learning lots about shoulders and shoulder pain. No idea when I will be on the water or fishing again, physio does not even start for another month
> 
> David


Get well soon buddy ;-)


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

Sheese mate  , hang in there Southerly. Hope your recovery goes well.
Cheers
Mike


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## L3GACY (Sep 2, 2007)

For anyone insterested, Wedgetail gave me a taste of Bowen therapy today. He worked on me for around two minutes and I couldn't believe the result. I'm looking forward to seeing what 20 minutes can do. My back and shoulder loosened up considerably.... the real surprise though, was the wrist. I reckon it will be of great benefit to other tendonitis sufferers.


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## wedgetail (Mar 27, 2008)

Hi guys 
the most important part of this thread is to get help as soon as you realize your shoulder is in trouble , if the soreness persists past a couple of paddling sessions look for professional help, whether it be a physio, bowen therapist or massage therapist ! then start looking at why you have the problem is it your paddle or your technique the best way to resolve a shoulder or back problem is not to get one in the first place . cheers Mark


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