# DIY Kayaking Attire



## AndyC (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi all,

Since I first started paddling, the issue of what to wear while kayaking is one that has perplexed me a great deal. I have always worn full length waders and, despite convincing evidence that they are safe to wear on the water, I've always been very sceptical.

Almost anyone you talk to has their own solution to this issue of kayak attire and many of the options are either impractical for one reason or another, or they are exceedingly expensive. I have come up with what, for me, seems like a pretty satisfactory setup and I thought I'd share it. If it does nothing more than give you a laugh, that can't be a bad thing. I live in Southern Tasmania, so warmth is the major issue, particularly for winter paddling.

WISH LIST

This is my wish list for a kayak outfit:

SAFE (i.e. mustn't weigh me down or increase the liklihood of drowning, if I go for an unplanned swim. I've never capsized my prowler but I know the day must come, sooner or later.

COMFORTABLE (keep me warm in winter and not cause me to cook in the warmer weather)

COST EFFECTIVE (I'm sure shark skins and dry suits are marvellous things for people who have unlimited funds. That isn't me!)

DRY (Where it counts. I just can't handle having a wet backside; certainly not in the winter time, anyhow!)

PRACTICAL FOR THE OVER 40's (i.e. If I need to take a pee, I don't want to have to peel off several layers of gear first)

STYLISH!!! (Goes without saying that it has to look cool!!!)

CURRENT OPTIONS:

Wetsuits have a lot going for them but they are like wearing a straight jacket, are a pain to get into at my age and almost impossible to get out of. They will totally cook you in summer. And if you need a toilet break, half way through your day, I wish you luck!

Waders .... well, I just can't convince myself that I'd cope if I went overboard and I don't want to always have to avoid those slightly faster streams, for fear of 'what if'. This was the primary motivation for finding an alternative clothing solution.

Shark skins (OK for the obscenely wealthy but I have no experience of them).

Dry Suit (Combine the worst properties of wetsuits and sharkskins .... expensive and too hot in summer)

MY SOLUTION:

My approach is simply this. Wear whatever normal clothing you like on your upper body.

Wear baggy legged shorts

Wear the LEGS ONLY from a wetsuit and a pair of neoprene booties.

Cover the whole outfit up with waterproof trousers and jacket (Only needed in Winter)

This unusual setup has met every one of the criteria that I set for myself. I cut the legs from an ex op-shop wetsuit ($10) and the booties likewise were op-shop (another $10). For $20, I have an excellent outfit for the yak and I reckon it will serve just as well for wet wading trout streams in the summertime. With my Stormy rain suit over the top, it even looks OK. If I need a toilet break, I no longer need to strip off fishing vest, PFD and waders first. I think that the rainproof trousers will keep my backside dry but I haven't got enough water in the yak to be certain about that yet.

If other members have any ideas for improving this setup, I'd be grateful to hear about them. But if like me, you are looking for a cheap and simple solution for keeping legs warm, consider the wetsuit legs and booties. I was out for several hours yesterday and it never exceeded 10 degrees all day and at no time was I the least bit cold. And this particular wetsuit is quite thin.

A few pics:





































I was surprised to find that the wetsuit legs don't seem inclined to slip down, as you might expect. I actually wore them around the farm on Thursday (under my rainsuit) when it was hissing down and I had some outdoor jobs that just wouldn't wait. But for summer wet wading, I am thinking I will come up with a kind of 'suspender belt' arrangement. Practical AND sexy!!!   

Hope these ideas might prove of interest to some members. Personally, I wonder why no wetsuit manufacturer hasn't already thought of this and why it hasn't already been tried by other paddlers. Maybe I am missing something?

Cheers All,

AndyC


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## Ranger (May 31, 2008)

AndyC said:


> If other members have any ideas for improving this setup, I'd be grateful to hear about them.


Ya cant improve on perfection! ;-)

I had the idea once of just cutting an old wetsuit in half and wearing the bottom half. The problem I found was that even secondhand, it was difficult to find anything for under around $75.

To make your life easier getting the legs on, slip a plastic shopping bag over your foot first. Ya legs just slide straight in with ease then, and ya can remove the bag from the other end.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Andy , love yer gear mate , boy what a sexy man, my Nubiles are going Ga Ga over you champ and they have asked for an enlarged photo , trouble is i dont quite know what they want enlarged . Good Post Andy and very sensible gear mate , but humourous :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Barrabundy (Sep 29, 2008)

Don't know about you but when I'm out there I don't really care what anyone thinks about my attire. When on land in public we do tend to feel a little self conscious with all the weird and wacky gear on. Funny thing is that deep down, although they'll never admit it, the females lust after men in body hugging kayaking gear.....really they do! :lol: :lol:


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

Andy, best thing you did was ditch the waders, as for the rest, sorry but I have to disagree. I don't wish to offend anyone, but it amuses me when we pat each other on the back, for skimping on the one thing that is going to save our lives if we are left stranded in cold water, "What We Wear". We also come on the forums asking for approval when we should be out with help (if needed) and testing it in a real life situation. 
The best way (IMHO) to find out, is to test it how you will and where you will use it. Note: Do not let yourself get in a Hypothetical state, at all times, make sure you have assistance, have a rescue plan & stay close to your dry clothes etc. 
Go some where safe (next to car park) & with plenty of assistance, take some blankets (in case), dry change of clothes, something warm to drink (not alcohol) & have a rescue plan ready that everyone concerned understands (in case). 
Have everything on the bank ready, load your kayak as for a normal day (leash everything), put on your pfd, and then do a deliberate capsize and see how you go. Make sure you can right your kayak, board your kayak and then see how long it takes for the cold to take effect on your muscles, etc, it's not over just because you are out of the water, wind chill through wet clothes has the potential to lower the skins surface temperature, 4 degrees lower than that of the atmospheric temperature around you, allow for the return trip.

I am no expert and I may be wrong also, but here is my take on suitable kayak clothing (Warning, long winded).

Kayak Suitable Clothing, Pro's & Con's.
IMHO appropriate Kayak clothing is clothing that is worn to protect you from the elements. Appropriate kayak clothing should protect you from the sun, wind, rain and more importantly immersion. 
The dangers from an immersion situation include;
(1)Hypothermia
(2)Cold Shock
(3)Drowning

My opinion is that you should dress for immersion first and foremost, then work on a balance in comfort, freedom of movement and surface protection after that. If you are not dressing for immersion, in my opinion, you are sadly (putting it politely) very mistaken and should not be on the water in or on a kayak. Remember, water conducts heat away from the body 25 times faster than air. 
If you are getting cold on your kayak, then you are ill dressed for an immersion whether short or prolonged. If you are staying very warm or even getting hot then you are probably better suited to a prolonged immersion and will have a higher chance of survival when or if the situation arises. If you are getting cold on your kayak and cannot warm up, you are doomed and so is an enjoyable day out on your kayak, if you are overheating then simply take a dip, practise a quick re-entry to cool off, have a drink of water and continue your day on your kayak.

To properly protect yourself in an immersion, you need to minimise heat loss to the water around you. The only way to do that is to have a completely sealed barrier or have a close fitting thermal barrier and minimise water flow next to the skin. Conditions change on a regular basis so it is important to take notice of the condition and dress appropriately to best protect yourself and that is more easily achieved by layering
A good balance should include;
(1) Base layer (thermal).
(2) Secondary (waterproof / wind proof / UV protection)
(3) Accessories (hats / glasses / boots / further UV protection)
(4) Approved PFD Type 1 or Type 2.

Cotton and Wool Clothes
Cotton and wool clothes should be avoided, in fact they have no place on a kayak as they absorb water, dry slowly and become heavy. Wearing wet clothing that breathes similar to cotton and wool will accelerate heat loss through wind chill and the extra weight will make it harder to extract yourself from the water back onto/into your kayak where you can concentrate on managing heat loss. If you find yourself in an immersion situation, the most important thing is to get back out of the water as quickly and safely as possible.

PFD's 
In Victoria, people using Kayaks & canoe's are required to wear either a Type 1 or Type 2 PFD.
PFD Type 1
A PFD Type 1 is a recognised life-jacket.
A PFD Type 1 will provide a high level of buoyancy and keep the wearer in a safe floating position. They are made in high visibility colours with retro-reflective patches and can be either an inflatable PFD or a flotation foam filled PFD.

PFD Type 2
A PFD Type 2 is a buoyancy vest - not a recognised life-jacket. It will provide less buoyancy than a PFD Type 1 but is sufficient to assist keeping your head above water for a short period of time. Like a PFD Type 1 they are manufactured in high visibility colours and only come as a flotation foam filled PFD.
Without a doubt, Type 1 PFD's are the safest to wear if you find yourself stranded in the water, however, flotation foam filled Type 1 PFD's can be quite bulky to wear and can be uncomfortable even difficult to wear on a kayak when paddling. Where as the inflatable style Type 1 PFD has minimal bulk allowing much more freedom of movement and comfort while sitting and paddling, but once inflated they become extremely bulky across the chest and behind the neck. If you are in the water and inflate your PFD, exiting the water to the safety of your kayak can be considerably hindered as is the ability to paddle because of the bulky inflation. If the PFD is deflated, it cannot be re-inflated until a new gas canister has been fitted, it is also no longer recognised as a life-jacket until a new canister has been fitted.
Another thing to consider with an inflatable PFD, if you were to be knocked unconscious before inflating your PFD, and there is know-one to assist you, your PFD will not inflate unless it is an auto inflate.

Type 2 PFD's on the other hand, while not being recognised as a life-jacket and being less bouyant than a PFD Type 1, are not as bulky to wear when seated and paddling a kayak or canoe. They will offer immediate support if you end up in the water and will offer less restriction while trying to remount your kayak. Flotation foam filled PFD's also offer some thermal protection to the upper torso of the body and can increase wind chill protection.

Ok so lets look at some different clothes that you will see or here of others wearing;
Dry-suits
From personal experience a dry-suit is by far the best option as a secondary layer, but only if you keep it sealed and layer accordingly underneath to match that of the external climate and water temperature in your area. A dry-suit has little thermal quality so the layers you wear under it are important to balance according to conditions, always remember it is easy to cool down by hopping in the water where warming up can be a lot more difficult. A dry-suit however is of little use and becomes a hazard if it is not kept in good condition, if zips are not done up tight or seals leak. If you are wearing a dry-suit full of water, firstly you will struggle to get back on your kayak due to the extra weight from water in your suit, secondly water will not be able to drain away from your skin sapping important body heat and increasing the chances of hypothermia. Both ladies and men can also enjoy the comfort of relief valves using catheter condoms or a She-p body fixtures or relief zips and in my opinion and from personal experience, "A MUST HAVE".

Long John Wet-suit;
If you cannot afford a dry-suit or prefer using neoprene then a good set of neoprene long John's will give your torso and legs thermal and UV protection, the thickness will depend on personal body heat loss and the amount of exercise one will be exerting, however for winter I think 3 mm should be a minimum in a cool climate like Melbourne. A free moving fibre thermal layer like a polyester T-shirt and/or jacket (not cotton or wool) may also be needed for the arms and upper torso, once again depending on the amount of excursion and personal body heat loss.
As a secondary layer, you could then go for a windproof spray jacket similar to what cyclists and sailors wear, they will once again allow freedom of movement through the shoulders while blocking UV, water spray (not immersion) and wind.

Windproof/Sprayproof Pants & Jackets;
Pants & Jackets that are loose fitting may be warm and protect you from splash, wind etc when on a kayak but will not give you any thermal protection in the water in an immersion, as the water can freely flow by your skin sapping important heat away, and should only be classed as a secondary layer.

Wet-suits;
Neoprene, as found in wet-suits, will offer thermal and UV protection and can be classed as your thermal layer, you need to note however. A tight fitting full wet-suit (like a diver would wear) will actually help cause fatigue from limiting freedom of movement, also full suits cause chaff and minimise freedom of movement through the shoulders and arms when paddling, causing further fatigue. Its also a good thing to remember, if you are wearing a neoprene suit and are wet, wind will penetrate the neoprene magnifying the chances of wind chill after an immersion, hence the need for a secondary layer to block the penetrating wind and reduce the effect of wind chill.

Waders;
A lot of people like to wear waders, specially neoprene waders, they are comfortable and can keep your feet warm and dry, there is no doubt about that. But waders have the potential to be as hazardous as an unzipped dry-suit, any layer that is not sealed, needs to be able to freely drain water away, having a sealed boot/leg like waders, will not drain and will hold water against the body sapping important heat away. They ability for water to enter your waders in an immersion, even with a belt, is very high, making the task of exiting the water, even harder due to the extra weight of the now trapped water. If by some chance you are "not" wearing a PFD and you enter the water head first, the air trapped in your waders has the potential to hold you upside down (head first) under the water. If you do wear waders, learn to do a somersault while in the water, this will then transfer the air from your feet back up to the waist of your wader where it is expelled and water gushes inside instead. In the end, remember the idea of your clothing is for protection and I would not recommend the use of waders on a kayak.

Shorts;
Shorts may be very comfortable to wear, light, offer freedom of movement and hold very little water but honestly I believe they have no place on a kayak when worn on there own.
As most if not all of your time on your kayak will be spent sitting down, your legs stretched out and exposed directly to the elements. Even if it is overcast your legs are exposed to excessive amounts of UV light, possibly causing sunburn or even under extreme circumstances, skin legions and melanoma's. In the colder months with your skin exposed to wind chill and splashes of cold water, your body will begin to shut down the extremities to try and protect the bodies core temperature and muscular strength and flexibility will decrease in the process. Not only will you become cold and uncomfortable after a period of time, your chances of sustaining cold-shock or hypothermia will be drastically increased in an immersion situation. If you are unable to use your muscles to right your overturned kayak and to get back aboard your kayak you are doomed.

Thick fleece Jackets;
While they are warm and comfortable, thick fleece jackets have the potential to become extremely heavy in an immersion situation, even synthetic jacket will hold a lot of water, which has the potential to make it hard to exit the water. The one thing that a synthetic jacket, will do, is drain/ dry a little quicker once out of the water, but in my opinion should not be worn on a kayak.

Socks/Boots
Heat loss through your feet is a major effect on a kayak. Your feet are constantly in contact with the water from the moment you start off, so protect them the same as the rest of your body with layers. A good pair of neoprene boots and thick thermal socks will help keep your feet warm. If you want to go one step further and keep them dry as well, do not go for waders. Sealskinz socks are waterproof, wear them as a secondary layer like a dry-suit, then layer with thermal socks underneath, that way your main suit will still drain via the open legs if you are immersed. Also note boots with zips will allow more water to flow through allowing a greater heat loss, if you can, get neoprene boots with no zip. Wet neoprene can help increase wind chill, so in extremely cool windy conditions, an outer wind blocking boot gaiter or bag may be necessary to keep your feet warm.

Accessories
It is common knowledge that most heat loss is through your head, as is a lot of hydration. A good hat is a must and while a wool beanie is comfortable, it is useless once wet. Go for synthetic hats Legionaries are great or neoprene hoods to protect the head. 
Both direct and reflective radiation from the sun can also do a lot of damage, sun creams of SPF30+ and sun glasses are also a good idea to wear for increased protection and yes even in winter there is a danger from UV light and while we are on the subject of glasses, get polarized which will also help reduce surface glare allowing you to see into the water while you are at it.
Gloves are also very handy to have, they can protect your hands from fish spikes and squid bites, protect from cold and UV light or just wear them as a final fashion statement, which ever ones you go for, it's a good idea to check if they will help or hinder gripping a wet slippery overturned hull, removing the finger tips can also help manage tying knots etc without removing the whole glove and they can also help better grip your paddle.

As said at the start, this is only my opinion and I am not an expert in anyway or form, and there is no substitute for testing what you wear in a real life situation with the necessary precautions taken to stay safe while testing.


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## Cuda (Sep 18, 2006)

Some salient points there Elm. I agree on the issue of hypothermia. A good example lies in an incident that happened at Coral Bay in WA's north west a few years ago. A couple of guys fishing in a tinny were capsised by a wave and spent a fair bit of time in the water out in the bay. One was wearing a hat and the other either lost his or hadn't been wearing one. I think they eventually managed to swim to shore, but the one without a hat was in a far worse state than the one who was wearing a hat as a result of his head being more exposed to the cold.
The water at Coral Bay would be much warmer that Victorian water I would also think, so time spent in the water is pretty critical it seems.
I guess I am a bit slack when it comes to my yak fishing attire, although I have to admit that I have only been yak fishing a handful of times over the last year or so. I'm nearing 51 now and the older you get the less strength and resilience you have, which means more thought needs to go into safety 8) 
Anyway, well said Elm and like the fashion statement AndyC :lol:


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

Port Phillip Bay from June through to the end of August it can get down to 9°C, February / March up to 24°C, I know some of the mountain streams / rivers can get down to 6°C and can only imagine some of Tassie's waters would get down to similar if not colder temperature's.


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## AndyC (Feb 29, 2008)

ELM said:


> Andy, best thing you did was ditch the waders, as for the rest, sorry but I have to disagree. I don't wish to offend anyone, but it amuses me when we pat each other on the back, for skimping on the one thing that is going to save our lives if we are left stranded in cold water, "What We Wear". We also come on the forums asking for approval when we should be out with help (if needed) and testing it in a real life situation.
> The best way (IMHO)


Did you ever notice how, when someone prefaces a comment with "in my humble opinion" its advance notice that you are about to get lots of opinion .... and very little humility? Did you ever notice how, when someone says "I'm no expert, but....", you are about to be subjected to a lecture from one who seems to think that he actually is?

Elm ..... to a couple of your comments:

"as for the rest, sorry but I have to disagree" ????? Not exactly sure what it is you are disagreeing with, or why you would feel sorry about it. I listed my criteria, based on what I perceive as being my needs (as opposed to what I have been using for the past three or four years) and have stated why I think what I'm doing meets that criteria.

"it amuses me when we pat each other on the back, for skimping on the one thing that is going to save our lives" I'm glad your amused .... I like a good laugh too. But I can't quite see the funny side of this, if that's how you interpret the outcome of this thread ....... that people will place their lives in jeopardy by following my example.

"We also come on the forums asking for approval when we should be out with help (if needed) and testing it in a real life situation." Well, I didn't realise that my motive was to gain approval. Silly me! And I did test the outfit yesterday ... it was warmer and more comfortable than what I've used previously. Apparently, I was supposed to go swimming instead? I neither claimed, nor implied that my outfit constitutes some kind of safety wear. Only that I thought it less dangerous than wearing waders. My definition of 'Safe' was simply ... mustn't weigh me down or increase the liklihood of drowning.

I posted this because I think its an improvement on what I've had before and I thought that sharing the idea might be of some use to others. I thought that was the purpose of a forum. However, since you have a solid average post rate of 2.5 per day for the past two years, I imagine you have a better idea than I do, of why we are here.

Your apparent tacit assumption that people are too brain dead to make sensible decisions about their personal safety or the appropriateness of their equipment or where they are using it seems extremely demeaning. If you felt the need to trundle out your expertise, so that we can all stand in awe and clap, why not simply start your own thread?

Its true, of course, that my outfit wouldn't keep me alive very long in extremely cold water, if I was immersed for an extended period. Its one of the reasons why my winter paddling is restricted to sheltered waters. But if we all of us go through life preparing for the worst possible outcome in everything that we do, I daresay that none of us would do very much. I also suspect that by your standards, the vast majority of AKFF'ers are failing the dress code and shouldn't be on the water at all! Also, I'd suggest that anyone who dresses for long term immersion survival down in Tasmania in summer is far more likely to die of heat stroke than of hypothermia!

I noted your comment that you didn't want to offend anyone so I have complied by not being offended.

I should thank you though for reminding me (if I needed reminding) that I shouldn't embarrass myself by sharing my simple ideas. I will just crawl back into my hole now!

Cheers All.

AndyC


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

AndyC said:


> I posted this because I think its *an improvement on what I've had before* and I thought that sharing the idea might be of some use to others. I thought that was the purpose of a forum.


Andy as a great fan of home grown think you have posted some good options there within the boundaries you enunciated in your original post.

The forum certainly is for an exchange of ideas, and up here in the north even your gear is not required for the average outing, and we can take that into account as we read these pages about yakking in colder climes.

Keep those contributions coming mate


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## boydglin (Aug 12, 2010)

i think that the problem here is andy seems to be fishing some very quiet water judging by that river in the background and i would imagine that his chance of rollover would be minimal at least. i know that when i head out i wear sharkskin long pants and some dive boots and whatever i feel comfortable in on top and this keeps me very warm but it is more for comfort than safety as i too fish fairly quiet waters and have a fairly stable yak. agreed it could happen but if it did its usually not too far for me to scramble to the bank.

on the other hand elm i am thinking that you are referring to much more open water experiences where yes i would definitely agree with your points and i feel that the safety gear would take a much higher priority and also that the conditions would be a hell of a lot more demanding than what i personally encounter while im out fishing.

boyd


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## spooled1 (Sep 16, 2005)

I think Elm is bang on with these 4 points as a core approach to kayak wear:

(1) Base layer (thermal)
(2) Secondary (waterproof / wind proof / UV protection)
(3) Accessories (hats / glasses / boots / further UV protection)
(4) Approved PFD Type 1 or Type 2.

- Base layers can be a 2nd hand wettie from a garage sale, thermal underwear or a rash vest. Neoprene doesn't frey so you can cut a wetsuit in half to make a seperate top and pants for easy access if you need to have a leak.
- Secondaries and accessories (except maybe wetsuit booties) can be purchased at virtually any discount store or even Vinnies

You don't need overthink, overspend or be a bling wearing brand junkie to be safe or warm on the water.
When I went out yesterday morning it was 9 degrees (air temp) and I was snug and comfortable in my dual base layer (rash vest, 1mm neoprene LS top, cut down wettie shorts) and a secondary (spray jacket), some accessories (wetsuit booties) and a PFD. On entry I was covered head to toe by a breaking wave. I fished for 3 hours and didn't even feel a chill come through the 15km/h westerly.


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi sorry didn't get back to you on my comments, been a bit off for a while.

Firstly it appears I was a bit abrupt in how I tackled my reply, was not my intention to offend anyone, it's just I see the clothing we wear only second to the PFD that we are to wear in importance. While we all have differing climates to deal with, an extended immersion will eventually have the same effect "hypothermia".
Down south we are also exposed (although the threat is low, it still exists) to "Cold Shock". I personally have once been exposed to early stages of hypothermia and I have also retrieved an inexperienced and very poorly prepared novice kayaker from the water with hypothermia.

It's not just about the dunking, it's also about getting back to shore or even your kayak, and to a degree no I am not just talking about open water, it can happen anywhere and here is a very good example of why I make my stance on protective clothing no matter where. The Barwon River is not a great expanse of water, it's just your average river estuary. Arr but it's just a river, I will never fall out on that and if I do the bank is just there!!! Famous words, and here is a kayaker that is very lucky to be alive in that very river.

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2010/11/16/226301_news.html

My personnel opinion is there is no place for shorts on a kayak, if you are wearing shorts on a kayak you are not dressing for an extended immersion, you are dressing for comfort on a kayak. If you are dressing to protect yourself in an extended immersion you will be wearing a skin tight thermal product that will minimise water flow across the skins surface, this will allow the skin to retain as much warmth as possible. If the water that is against the skin has its flow restricted, the body has a chance to actually heat that water and retain body heat, but if the water is in a state of constant flow it is actually carrying the heat away at an accelerated rate. If the body is loosing heat it will shut down blood flow to the outer extremities, that being the skin and muscle's, no blood and the muscle's begin to weaken and cramp, if you have weak and cramped muscle's, you have little chance to get back to your kayak or back on it, and even if you do, what then? 
How will you get back? 
How will you copy with the wind chill?

My two greatest hate's in dress on a kayak are shorts and waders but waders are a whole new story.

Codes of Practise, "WHAT" who wants a code of practice?
It's interesting how long ocean kayaking has been going on and how few incidents have occurred. It's also interesting how little it is regulated by the governments. 
Why?
I believe because they are prepared to recognize the risks and take measures to protect not only them selves from the risks but also their sport.
How do they do that?
With world wide self regulated "Codes of Practice", If you go onto any sea/ocean kayak exploring web site or visit any sea/ocean kayak club, the same thing will come from them as another group around the other side of the globe, and that is training and protective clothes and they are all fairly consistent with each other.
Come onto kayak fishing sites and it is quite the opposite, read the papers or listen to the news, how many kayak fisherman have had near misses or worse in the last few years, and what have we done about it? Oww poor Johnny and that's about it.

We have no "Codes of Conduct", if someone in a cool climate come onto the different kayak sites asking what comfortable, we shouldn't be telling them shorts are comfy, we should be saying; here read the "Code of Conduct for protective clothes". If people keep drowning or dying from hypothermia I can tell you now the government body who are in charge of that area are not going to come to us the kayak fishers for advise because they can already see with all the posts that we are not interested in protecting ourselves and then they will do it for us, but then I doubt they will say what clothes we have to wear, instead they will limit where we can go so we cannot get in trouble. Mark my words, if we as kayak fishers are not prepared to (smart) self regulate they will and it is inevitable with the growth we are experiencing.

AndyC, It's not my intention to offend, it's more to possibly extend your life and the life of my chosen sport (if I ever get back out).

Cheers Eddie


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## Brc226 (Jul 31, 2009)

Good on ya Andy and thanks for taking the time to share your ideas.

I hit the water very early a few weeks back and made the mistake of not giving the early morning sun due respect. Consequently I got little sun burned and I have been looking for a solution ever since. I recon I can use some of your ideas and adapt them to my situation.

Cheers,
Rob


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## gonfission (Feb 21, 2009)

Wow! @ 2.5k words and 11.5k characters (no spaces, copied to "word" out of curiosity) that was a bit more than you expected Andy. Both posts were valid. Alas now my brain hurts. Thank god I'm in Queensland and too wussy to paddle in bad weather. :lol: 
cheers John.


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## Zed (Sep 18, 2006)

Serious question:
Does anyone really paddle in a Type I or II?

Here, the majority of kayak-specific pfd's are type III, and that is what I have always owned. Has anyone ever been asked to see the type of pfd you are wearing by your Coasties (or whatever branch of Coast Guard AUS has)? I'm on my 3rd ExtraSport Retroglide, and ALL of the Extrasport pfd's are III.

Edit: 2nd question, are type classifications universal? 
I was poking around in Safety, and didn't find anything useful. Although some pix I saw of some vest-type Type II's looked exactly like my type III, which spawned the 2nd question.


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## Booyah (Apr 26, 2009)

All the comments seem to be focused on getting into trouble from getting to wet and to cold..go around wearing a wetsuit or similiar in summer and you will pass out and drown from heat stroke long before you get cold ;-)

All things in balance


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

Booyah said:


> All the comments seem to be focused on getting into trouble from getting to wet and to cold..go around wearing a wetsuit or similiar in summer and you will pass out and drown from heat stroke long before you get cold ;-)
> 
> All things in balance


Very true Booyah, you do need to control over heating. If you are overheating and layered you can either remove then re-add layers, take a dip and practice a re-entry, have a drink and just put your wrists/ankles in the water to cool down, the same cannot be said if you are under dressed. I can wear a 3 mm longjohn wetsuit through the whole summer period down here, yes it does get hot but I just take a dip and it's fine and no sunburn. If I were to take an extended immersion I know the longjohn will give me a hell of a lot more thermal protection than a pair of shorts.


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

Zed said:


> Serious question:
> Does anyone really paddle in a Type I or II?
> 
> Here, the majority of kayak-specific pfd's are type III, and that is what I have always owned. Has anyone ever been asked to see the type of pfd you are wearing by your Coasties (or whatever branch of Coast Guard AUS has)? I'm on my 3rd ExtraSport Retroglide, and ALL of the Extrasport pfd's are III.
> ...


Hi Zed
Most I know down south here are either wearing type ll or type 1 (inflatable), we have one who paddles a woody who wears a type 1 foam filled. Come to think of it I cannot think of anyone wearing a type lll.

As for having my vest type checked, I had some fisheries guys asking me about the AI once, vest was laying on the deck and he commented it was a type ll so he looked but I would not say I was asked by anyone.


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## spork (Jan 21, 2012)

Hmm.
Love the idea of the cut off wetsuit legs.
I have a long-john type wetsuit from my wave ski days. The legs still fit, but the bit around my belly seems to have shrunk...

Sorry Elm. I'm sure you are a very experienced kayaker, but I must disagree with a couple of your assertions:

You say inflatable PFD's are no longer able to be inflated after the cannister has been used.
I have a Stormy Seas vest. It is a type 1 PFD. It has a CO2 canister to inflate it, but it _also has a mouthpiece, to allow manual inflation_. Thus, it is still effective even after the CO2 has been used. When I had my stinkboat, I would partially (by mouth) inflate it whenever crossing a bar, or out in rough conditions. Oh, and the new stormys all come with an auto. inflater triggered by immersion.

Cotton and wool: You lump them together. They are very different fabrics.
Cotton is not an ideal material for warmth, especially when wet. (OK, it's crap). I agree %100 with you there.
Wool, it may absorb water, thus making it heavier than neoprene / sharkskins etc. However, it is well documented that it has excellent thermal properties even when wet. Grab yourself a decent merino baselayer and try it out. You will be amazed.

I think you also state somewhere that we loose most of our body heat through our head. (Quote) "Accessories
It is common knowledge that *most heat loss is through your head*, as is a lot of hydration. A good hat is a must and while a wool beanie is comfortable, it is useless once wet."

Sorry, but that is wrong.It's a commonly repeated fallacy that we loose %90 of out body heat through our head. (Admittedly, you don't quote the %90, but your assertion is that we loose "most"). Test this theory out. Go to snow with a friend of similar age, height and weight. You wear warm hat, he wears warm jumper, pants, socks and gloves. Who's warmest? Also, see above re: thermal properties of wool, wet or dry.

Sorry to be a noob who comes on here and argues with you, but I couldn't ignore some of the incorrect statements you made. To do so would be a disservice to others who look at your post and assume it is full of facts.


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## Alster99 (Nov 20, 2008)

Um... in defence of Elm's sensible response...



AndyC said:


> If other members have any ideas for improving this setup, I'd be grateful to hear about them.


He's a pretty knowledgable guy in regard to water safety and while his response was long winded, it did contain some good, valid points.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

Alster99 said:


> Um... in defence of Elm's sensible response...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm with you, and Elm. Done quite a bit of cold water/cold weather yakking, and you are spot on, and with 'most' heat loss through the head and neck. When you get cold, it is very difficult to reverse it. Planning for clothing is everything.

Trevor


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## spork (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm sure he is very knowledgable, and yes, his post contained (as far as I can see) mostly good, valid, information. His responce was sensible. However, I also think it contained three rather big errors, which I have pointed out in my previous post.

Maybe our Tassie wool is different to the stuff you get on the North island, and our 2 heads are undoubtably thicker, thus reducing cranio-atmospheric heat exchange. They probably don't export Stormy Seas stuff over there either... 

I'm sorry. I take risk management / safety seriously, at work and at play. I believe the internet, especially "special interest forums" is a wonderful resource. I also believe there is a lot of misinformation out there, just because a post contains an error or three does not invalidte the rest of the information in that post, or the credibility of the person posting it.

If I'm incorrect in any of the three assertions I made I'd be happy to hear why, until then I stand by them, and can provide photos to validate the first one and numerous links to online articles to support the second and third.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

One more glass of wine and I can give you a reply..............................................


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## cheaterparts (Jul 3, 2010)

Booyah said:


> All the comments seem to be focused on getting into trouble from getting to wet and to cold..go around wearing a wetsuit or similiar in summer and you will pass out and drown from heat stroke long before you get cold ;-)
> 
> All things in balance





ELM said:


> Very true Booyah, you do need to control over heating. If you are overheating and layered you can either remove then re-add layers, take a dip and practice a re-entry, have a drink and just put your wrists/ankles in the water to cool down, the same cannot be said if you are under dressed. I can wear a 3 mm longjohn wetsuit through the whole summer period down here, yes it does get hot but I just take a dip and it's fine and no sunburn. If I were to take an extended immersion I know the longjohn will give me a hell of a lot more thermal protection than a pair of shorts.


just to back up Eddie about wearing a 3 mm long john wet suit and he knows that I wear one all year around - summer or winter yak fishing almost every W/E
they do get hot in summer but theres a fair bit of water around to cool down with I just spash some water over myself no problem



Zed said:


> Serious question:
> Does anyone really paddle in a Type I or II?
> 
> Here, the majority of kayak-specific pfd's are type III, and that is what I have always owned. Has anyone ever been asked to see the type of pfd you are wearing by your Coasties (or whatever branch of Coast Guard AUS has)?


Zed 
we have only been checked once by the water police it was a just a quick check to make sure we had PFDs and were wearing them they also checked to see if we had bailers another requirement and they were on there way
with a few drownings of late with boating they were checking every boat that was launching - returning at carrem today ( very busy set of ramps Melbournes east ) for there safty gear
I sure they will be hitting kayaks as well in the area


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## paddlingfool (Oct 8, 2011)

Some wonderful ideas on here, but I think I will stick with my sunscreen and shorts :?


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## mudpat (Feb 21, 2011)

Those of us using SOT kayaks can flip them back over and climb back in, *provided* you are not separated from the yak, so protection from long immersion is unnecessary. I clip myself by a lanyard to my anchor trolley so separation is not an issue (unclip for surf entry/exit). PFD 2 of course.
I prefer board shorts and a rashie for basic wear, then I rely on Aldi for add ons. When the bike gear comes on sale I picked up the arm warmers ($9) which also provide SPF50 sun protection. They also have long, light thermals ($19) with the ski gear. Finally, a BCF rainbird rain jacket when needed.
Total outfit is light and provides all the protection required down here on the south coast.
I do not plan on hypothermia being a major issue as I am never more than 5 km from shore so even in the worse case, if I get dunked, it is not a problem to climb back onboard and get to shore.


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## spork (Jan 21, 2012)

Hey Trevor.
Been a few days now.
You didn't fall into that glass of wine and drown did you?
I hope not. Maybe you just did some research and found out I was right? :lol: 
Cheers.


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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

Hic


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## spork (Jan 21, 2012)




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## kayakone (Dec 7, 2010)

spork said:


> Sorry Elm. I'm sure you are a very experienced kayaker, but I must disagree with a couple of your assertions:
> 
> Cotton and wool: You lump them together. They are very different fabrics.
> Cotton is not an ideal material for warmth, especially when wet. (OK, it's crap). I agree %100 with you there.
> ...


Spork,
You appear to be quite skeptical regarding heat loss through the head and neck. You also appear to be skeptical of Elm's advice regarding dressing for immersion, and the use of modern fabrics for heat loss protection.
"Go to snow with a friend of similar age, height and weight. You wear warm hat, he wears warm jumper, pants, socks and gloves. Who's warmest? "

Elm wasn't talking about going to the snow....he was talking about dressing for immersion.
You may have been using wool for a long time, however, some avid outdoors active people no longer rely on wool to give them the best protection. Anyway, please refer to the following, which describes the debilitating and rapid effects of cool (_not even cold!_) water immersion, which is one of the thrusts of Elm's advice...

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=52843

Please refer also to the following....

http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/2/669.

http://wildernessmedicinenewsletter.wor ... pothermia/

_Also, please try immersion in cold water for yourself, as this is the worst case scenario._ I believe this is the basis of Elm's preparedness warnings and advice. Trying this would also be an excellent opportunity to test whether wool is better than modern day thermals. 
Don't get me wrong about wool. I've read Shackleton and others, and what they did only with wool is amazing. But please, despite your experience with wool in _your_ outdoor adventures, don't totally discount improvements in insulating materials.

Cheers, and happy safe yakking

Trevor


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## spork (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks Trevor.
As always, some very interesting reading you linked there.

From the account of the victim of this event, I followed the last link he provided re; hypothermia, and a short way into the article found the following"

_"Clothing

Savvy outdoors enthusiasts know that insulating critical heat loss regions (head and neck, sides of chest, armpits, and groin) forestalls hypothermia, frostbite, or simple cold discomfort. Layering appropriate fabrics helps preserve body heat, also. Kayaker and freelance writer, Tim Sprinkle, has three rules for dressing for a potentially chilly day outdoors: 
No cotton. When wet it is worthless as an insulator and heavy.
"Wick, warmth, and weather." Wear a wicking fabric next to your skin, insulating layers of fleece or wool, then an outer layer made of windproof, watertight materials.
No cotton; seriously.

Clothing made of modern watertight materials like nylon and Gore-Tex are good for keeping warmth in and cold water out. However, they require carefully selected underclothing since the garments may not have built-in insulation. If flotation materials are not used, then wear a PFD in addition to watertight clothes."_

The above seems to verify my point that cotton and wool are very different textiles. I never claimed that wool was the _only_ decent fabric for insulation, wet or dry. I simply said it was far superior to cotton.

The article you link re: "whole head immersion in cold water" is also interesting. However, it still does not really prove that "the majority of heat loss is through the head", in any situation we are likely to encounter (unless we are diving) as "whole head immersion", in water of any temperature, will be fatal in a matter of minutes! Furthermore, the subjects of the study were: given "buspirone (30 mg) and meperidine (2.5 mg/kg)" (to prevent shivering) - another "reflex", that helps to keep us warm. An interesting experiment, but hardly relevant to real life situations.
I concede that the head and neck do contribute to heat loss, but I still don't concede (and neither does the article you link - %42) that MOST (>%50) is lost this way.
A couple of articles (there are many more) that confirm what I said - assuming the head is above water, which is generally considered essential for ongoing human life:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/ ... nbehaviour
http://wildernessmedicinenewsletter.wor ... pothermia/

I also read several articles re: heat loss through the head and neck when immersed. It seems that there have only been 2 studies done on this. One was by the Nazi's and is given little credence, as it was unethical, and the test subjects were in fairly poor health to begin with, the other is the one you linked to - where other reflexes (shivering and drowning) were abolished with drugs and breathing apparatus.

Anyway, I'm sure elm didn't intend to misinform anyone, and the gist of what he said was certainly valid.
I apologise for "nit picking" the way I did.
Anyway, too nice a day outside for this, and I have to work this afternoon.
Happy 'yakking to all.


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## millonario (Feb 20, 2012)

Thought you guys might like these.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Clothing ... t104329080


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