# Great Whites, Endangered species?



## Krisyak (Jan 9, 2012)

In the wake of the recent fatal shark attack in Gracetown Western Australia on Saturday morning. I'm curious as to whether you think White Pointer sharks should still be on the endangered species list? There seem to be more and more fatal attacks happening in recent years and I think shark numbers have increased.
Personally I don't support a shark cull, but I reckon the endangered species act should be lifted on White Pointers, I think if people want to go and catch them for sport, let them (Not that I would).
The government talks about spending millions on shark nets and ocean pools yet taking the White Pointer off the endangered species list is an option I haven't heard them or anyone else discuss.

Keen to hear your thoughts on the subject.


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

I would suggest that the number of attacks has a lot to do with increased numbers of people in the water and silly buggers surfing the dawn/dusk periods when risk of attack is greatest.
The stupid thing is the WA govt refusing to get involved in the satellite tagging program for Great Whites. Tagging that has been done so far highlights the stupidity of trying to kill "rogue" sharks - they have been shown to be constantly on the move, not hanging in the one spot, some tagged in WA wandered over to South Africa to try the taste of their surfers, then came back when they discovered that they tasted of biltong!


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## koich (Jul 25, 2007)

Their numbers are still low. There are just more than there used to be.

In reality the increase is probably more due the fact we stopped killing whales as opposed to stopped killing sharks.


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

Just like the whales, sharks are now creating tourist income. Whale watching all over Oz and the "diving with sharks" experiences out of Pt Lincoln.
As for the surfers, how many surfers were munched by sharks prior to the 60's - none, because there weren't any surfers.
Anyway, who cares if they are chewing trendy blonde surfers, as long as they leave us yakkers alone  
Basically it all comes back to summing up the risks, just like swimming or kayaking in parts of the Territory or Qld and complaining about crocs. Its their home and their numbers are maybe returning to more natural levels following large scale hunting. 
I worked in Kakadu in the 90's and our supervisors had been used to wading and snorkelling in the billabongs. That was fine in the 70's and 80's when they were young researchers because croc numbers were very low due to a century of hunting. It had to be pointed out to them that both the croc population and OH&S rules had changed. Even then I had some very unsettling experiences doing wetlands ecology research there


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## GlenelgKiller (Mar 13, 2012)

RhubarbTheYeti said:


> I would suggest that the number of attacks has a lot to do with increased numbers of people in the water and silly buggers surfing the dawn/dusk periods when risk of attack is greatest.
> The stupid thing is the WA govt refusing to get involved in the satellite tagging program for Great Whites. Tagging that has been done so far highlights the stupidity of trying to kill "rogue" sharks - they have been shown to be constantly on the move, not hanging in the one spot, some tagged in WA wandered over to South Africa to try the taste of their surfers, then came back when they discovered that they tasted of biltong!


Take a look at the stats on attacks in WA and you will see hardly any are at dawn or dusk. There is certainly something happening over there in recent years, far more than a simple argument such as more people in the water would support. Perhaps it is greater shark numbers for some reason or something bringing them closer to shore. There are other theories around the volume of ships and live animal trade. I'm not sure what is causing it nor what the right solution is but in my opinion it has gone past being an anomoly to become a trend.


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

Anecdotal reports don't constitute scientific research. Thats why the satellite tagging program and other methods should be funded.


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

leftieant said:


> I think a factor is better managed fisheries such as snapper. In the Adelaide example, as a kid we would never, ever dream of catching a snapper anywhere in St Vincents Gulf, but since bag and slot limits came in plus a closed season, their numbers have rebounded.
> 
> Typically the snapper will migrate from deeper water (Investigator Strait et al) up the Gulfs to the shallow water to spawn - and with this migration comes the men in grey coats.
> 
> ...


One of their major food sources prior to white fellas would have been seals. The massive reduction in seal numbers all around southern Australia in the 1800's must have had an impact on their numbers and then as you state, better management of fisheries has probably helped with their numbers. But the main point is that humans on or in the water when there is a top predator there just have "Lunch" written on their bums. They deserve to be there, we are the intruders. People have every right to complain when they start attacking kids on the streets


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## GlenelgKiller (Mar 13, 2012)

RhubarbTheYeti said:


> Anecdotal reports don't constitute scientific research. Thats why the satellite tagging program and other methods should be funded.


I agree. The anecdotal reports such as surfers in the water at dawn and dusk or more people in the water came from you though.


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## GlenelgKiller (Mar 13, 2012)

leftieant said:


> I think a factor is better managed fisheries such as snapper. In the Adelaide example, as a kid we would never, ever dream of catching a snapper anywhere in St Vincents Gulf, but since bag and slot limits came in plus a closed season, their numbers have rebounded.
> 
> Typically the snapper will migrate from deeper water (Investigator Strait et al) up the Gulfs to the shallow water to spawn - and with this migration comes the men in grey coats.
> 
> ...


Don't disagree but find it strange there have been no attacks (touch wood) in SA since 2007. Why in WA but not elsewhere?


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## eagle4031 (Jan 29, 2010)

RhubarbTheYeti said:


> Anecdotal reports don't constitute scientific research. Thats why the satellite tagging program and other methods should be funded.


agree 
interesting - a great white was sighted off an Adelaide beach last week 
my dad said they were there in the late v20's when he was a boy
they are there all the time
more of us on and in the water now


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

Cashed up mining bogans getting out there in their time off?


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## freeyaker (Feb 26, 2013)

I am much more scared of idiots, no matter what they ride, believe me from foot to ute to kayak, they are far more dangerous than any sharks.

On a more serious note, Great white are still recovering and their population is not as healthy as it seems. If they come closer to shore it is sometimes due to the reduction of larger offshore prey abundance that forces them to come closer to smash smaller prey items. If we find out about particular location where they congregate, it is definitely a good option to restrict the access of people to the water. 
Look out for idiots and leave the GWS in peace is the best option of all

Boris


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## GlenelgKiller (Mar 13, 2012)

eagle4031 said:


> RhubarbTheYeti said:
> 
> 
> > Anecdotal reports don't constitute scientific research. Thats why the satellite tagging program and other methods should be funded.
> ...


Missed that report, where was it? Saw a youtube of one out around the tyre reef somewhere a few weeks back chewing on a boaties prop.


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## eagle4031 (Jan 29, 2010)

they are becoming used to boats 
they are attracted for shark cage diving 
they are naturally curious -so it is hard to say whether they are becoming accustomed to human activity or that human activity is more common where they are. therefore they associate boats with food????


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## GlenelgKiller (Mar 13, 2012)

leftieant said:


> GlenelgKiller said:
> 
> 
> > Don't disagree but find it strange there have been no attacks (touch wood) in SA since 2007. Why in WA but not elsewhere?
> ...


Partially correct, Rodney Fox didn't die!! Late '06 was a knee boarder off West Beach and a few months later a scuba diver out on the snapper grounds off Glenelg. Long time prior to that in Adelaide metro as you said but a couple over on the far west coast in the prior decade.

There are a couple of resident seals here at Glenelg that have survived so far. Not sure they can serve as the canary in the mine though!


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2013)

koich said:


> Their numbers are still low. There are just more than there used to be.
> 
> In reality the increase is probably more due the fact we stopped killing whales as opposed to stopped killing sharks.


You may be right. Huge GWS (the only really risky ones for humans) seem to migrate with the Whales. Read carefully 'Attacks on boats' on this link. If you are still nervous about it, keep off the water during whale season.


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

GlenelgKiller said:


> Partially correct, Rodney Fox didn't die!! Late '06 was a knee boarder off West Beach and a few months later a scuba diver out on the snapper grounds off Glenelg. Long time prior to that in Adelaide metro as you said but a couple over on the far west coast in the prior decade.
> 
> There are a couple of resident seals here at Glenelg that have survived so far. Not sure they can serve as the canary in the mine though!


I wasn't suggesting that seals are attracting sharks, it was a reference to the massive historical depletion of seal numbers almost certainly having an effect on shark numbers.
When it comes to Rodney Fox, he spent many years after his attack killing every shark he could find and made docos about it, killing them with spears with shotgun cartridge heads. He then saw the light and has subsequently spent many years campaigning for the protection of sharks.


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## GlenelgKiller (Mar 13, 2012)

RhubarbTheYeti said:


> GlenelgKiller said:
> 
> 
> > Partially correct, Rodney Fox didn't die!! Late '06 was a knee boarder off West Beach and a few months later a scuba diver out on the snapper grounds off Glenelg. Long time prior to that in Adelaide metro as you said but a couple over on the far west coast in the prior decade.
> ...


I think you will find that my post was in response to Leftient, hence why I quoted his. The seal quip was tongue in cheek. Correct on Rodney Fox, a very interesting man i have met a couple of times.


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## eagle4031 (Jan 29, 2010)

do any of you really think of great whites when you head to sea


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## GlenelgKiller (Mar 13, 2012)

eagle4031 said:


> do any of you really think of great whites when you head to sea


Not usually. When im sitting out there bobbing around on a dark night with the water full of berley and a big bait out for a snapper it occasionally crosses my mind :shock:

I have a shark shield these days that gives me some piece of mind. When im pulling in a snapper im always careful about using a net and not leaning right out in case something toothy follows it up. Especially if i have already dragged in a few. I lost a decent snapper in 30m off of Whyalla a year or so back. The leader was bitten off almost to the main line. I thought about great whites then. :lol:


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## clarkey (Jan 13, 2009)

RhubarbTheYeti said:


> Cashed up mining bogans getting out there in their time off?


Sunshine Coast lad,over there chasing big waves.


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## GlenelgKiller (Mar 13, 2012)

salticrak said:


> As an apex predator there would always be fewer of them than the general biomass as an expressed % . I i have looked into a g.w. eye in false bay cape province S,A. there is no love there.


Maybe they are just misunderstood. Did you try a hug?


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

GlenelgKiller said:


> salticrak said:
> 
> 
> > As an apex predator there would always be fewer of them than the general biomass as an expressed % . I i have looked into a g.w. eye in false bay cape province S,A. there is no love there.
> ...


Thats even sillier than eric's suggestion that I hug the Elephant Seal


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## Krisyak (Jan 9, 2012)

eagle4031 said:


> do any of you really think of great whites when you head to sea


It's in the back of my mind the whole time I'm on the water. The thought of a white pointer showing up next to my kayak scares the crap out of me (Not enough to keep me out of the water though)
I haven't had the chance to get my kayak on the water since the start of the year due to work but on my last trip out I had quiet a scare, I was casting soft plastics around on a perfect glass off morning when I heard a commotion in the water about 50 meters in front of me, I looked over and saw a big black shadow moving towards my kayak and I completely froze up thinking it was a massive shark :shock: . As it turned out it was a school of fish (I felt pretty dumb once I realised :lol: ) but that fear I had thinking it was a big shark was unlike any fear I've ever experienced. I felt like I was gonna throw up, my heart was pounding big time and I couldn't move a muscle.
Since I've been into kayak fishing I've had two shark encounters on the water, the first was a little hammerhead and the second was a little bronze whaler. It was awesome seeing them up close, they didn't seem to care about me and went about there business. 
Little sharks don't scare me as much as the big ones, I'll be happy if I never see a great white while I'm out kayaking.
Might be time to invest in a shark shield.


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## eagle4031 (Jan 29, 2010)

onced I am on the water 
the thought of them leaves my mind
it will probably be a shock when I see a shark


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## BIGKEV (Aug 18, 2007)

Great idea, open up GWS to fishing......let's just berley up to bring more sharks closer to shore so they can be fished for, what do you think the ones that don't find a hook will be doing? Maybe looking for a real meal whilst in the neighbourhood?

Sadly WA waters seem to be a big of a killing zone lately, I wonder if the sharks are now viewing people as prey items?

It really seems that if you are in the water over there you genuinely take your life in your own hands.

I'll only worry when the national shark toll hits 50% of the national road toll figure per year, until then, I think the bogan shark hunters should stand down and maybe work out how to stop people dying on the roads.

Kev


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## cheaterparts (Jul 3, 2010)

BIGKEV said:


> I'll only worry when the national shark toll hits 50% of the national road toll figure per year, until then, I think the bogan shark hunters should stand down and maybe work out how to stop people dying on the roads.
> 
> Kev


this list is not up to date as it goes to 14 / 7 / 2012

http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/ ... meline.htm

so what is the road toll in the same period


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## SharkNett (Feb 20, 2006)

There is a definite link between numbers of sharks in an area and available food. It's the same with any predator population. Have seen docos on both GWS & tiger sharks that show they follow food sources. GWS follow whales & seals, tigers are known to frequent turtle & sea bird nesting sites. They learn where the food is going to be at certain times of the year. There was a fairly recent doco that showed since grey seals have been protected in Maine & numbers rose significantly GWS numbers have been on the rise on the east coast of the USA.
Something is attracting them to the WA coast, we just haven't worked out what it is yet. I doubt its people tho, we just don't have the mass of calories they can get from seals or whales. As far as I am aware it is generally accepted that a predator would burn more calories digesting a human than they get back. People probably get bitten more out curiosity or mistaken identity & I think most attacks are broken off after the shark gets a taste but unfortunately by the time the shark realises its mistake the damage has been done.
As has been suggested, electronic tagging programs are a big part of the answer. Just need to find someone with a vested interest & the money to pay for it.


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## Krisyak (Jan 9, 2012)

SharkNett said:


> As has been suggested, electronic tagging programs are a big part of the answer. Just need to find someone with a vested interest & the money to pay for it.


The government was approached by OCEARCH who are a US shark research team, they offered to do a 25 day expedition to tag white pointers in WA with electronic monitoring tags that could last for up to 10 years. The tags the fisheries department use only last 9-12 months and the collected data isn't available to the public, the data from OCEARCH would have been available via a smart phone app and people would've been able to see where the sharks are and where they have been.
OCEARCH offered to bring along Australian marine scientists who could have conducted there own research at the same time.
But for reasons that haven't been explained the government is dismissive of OCEARCH. It can't be a money issue because OCEARCH offered to fund the expedition themselves.


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## premium (Nov 23, 2011)

Krisyak said:


> SharkNett said:
> 
> 
> > As has been suggested, electronic tagging programs are a big part of the answer. Just need to find someone with a vested interest & the money to pay for it.
> ...


Could be something to do with a bit of controversy in South Africa, a bodyboarder was taken by a shark from a beach near where they'd been doing some research...
http://westcapenews.com/?p=4112


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

salticrak said:


> Kogel bay in the Cape, spent many a day getting wiped out there on my paddleski in my youth. The beach is snugged up tightly to the mountainside, making for a steep sloping beach. Cold water in winter and Seal Island in False Bay is only a few clicks away. That's where they captured the first footage of G.W's launching themselves at seals.


And people blame the sharks??????


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## RhubarbTheYeti (Oct 28, 2013)

Yeah, seeing the footage of those monster sharks hitting huge seals and making them look like ragdolls really shows how much they should be respected. SCARY


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## eagle4031 (Jan 29, 2010)

Krisyak said:


> SharkNett said:
> 
> 
> > As has been suggested, electronic tagging programs are a big part of the answer. Just need to find someone with a vested interest & the money to pay for it.
> ...


Let's say the app cost us $2 each. That would pay for a heap of research. They could not guarantee anything however, as they would not know if they had tagged every GWS


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## eagle4031 (Jan 29, 2010)

Be sensible 
fish with 2 other kayak fishers and be the one in the middle


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## anselmo (Aug 26, 2008)

BIGKEV said:


> Great idea, open up GWS to fishing......let's just berley up to bring more sharks closer to shore so they can be fished for, what do you think the ones that don't find a hook will be doing? Maybe looking for a real meal whilst in the neighbourhood?
> 
> I'll only worry when the national shark toll hits 50% of the national road toll figure per year, until then, I think the bogan shark hunters should stand down and maybe work out how to stop people dying on the roads.
> 
> Kev


This (these)


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## efc (Sep 19, 2006)

There was a great doco on the abc a few weeks back called 'search for the oceans super predator'. The story was based around finding the killer of a 3m female white pointer that was eaten off the shelf in Southern WA.
They said the big sharks (6m) eat giant squid, whales and other sharks in general and stick to the deeper waters past the shelf.
Was a great 60mins of TV


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## freeyaker (Feb 26, 2013)

Just found a good piece of info that a mate sent me. A bit of proper research behind the article and a couple of good number.

http://theconversation.com/how-to-preve ... acks-20890 
"In fact, research shows that the number of attacks per million people in Australia almost halved from approximately 60 per million people between 1930/1939 to approximately 30 per million people between 2000/2009."
if you click on the word research, it links directly to the scientific paper.
Cheers

Stay safe and Keep cool with big bruce the toothy bastard

Boris


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