# Kayak paddle questions



## jace89 (Apr 21, 2012)

Hey fellas im in the market for a new paddle. 
I was wondering what length most people go for?
Im roughly 6'2 if that helps.

Cheers!


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## scater (Nov 24, 2007)

It will depend on the type of stroke you make as well as things like the width of your yak. Your best bet is to get to a specialist canoe and kayak shop and get them to fit you.


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## rob316 (Oct 2, 2007)

Avery general rule is to stand with arm above head and if your fingers can curl over the top of the paddle blade to just before the knuckles then thats ok...any more = paddle to short....any less and paddle to long
This is a very general rule and as said , kayak width , height , type and seating position can factor in....


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## ArWeTherYet (Mar 25, 2007)

rob316 said:


> Avery general rule is to stand with arm above head and if your fingers can curl over the top of the paddle blade to just before the knuckles then thats ok...any more = paddle to short....any less and paddle to long
> This is a very general rule and as said , kayak width , height , type and seating position can factor in....


No my paddle would have to be over 230cm long, I'm 6'2" as well. I use a 200 for high volume paddle and a 216 for low volume one, else wise I damage my shoulders. Go to a proper kayak shop (as scater said). Better of being a little short than long.......even better doing a paddle technique coarse and learning how to use it.


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

http://www.bendingbranches.com/find-your-size

Good guideline to start if you cant test paddle, your kayak is 29" wide, your 6'2" tall...

230cm is a good size, if your bring your stroke more vertical and power stroke occasionally.

240cm is the trade off, longer endurance w/skill and great for touring (Without dipping full blade).


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## Theumage (Oct 13, 2010)

My current is a 225cm glass paddle, plastic blade with a glass rib.
When I was measured in a store I was told for my height and kayak a 215cm would be ideal. I'm 5'10".


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## neale (Sep 2, 2010)

I've found myself paddling rather than pedaling in my Adventure a hell of a lot lately and I've tried a few different length paddles, one was a you beaut number built for speed and was worth a lot of money, [ I have a mate who is a serious paddler], and I keep going back to my Hobie paddles. 
I'm 6'.


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## Guest (May 4, 2012)

Hobie paddle + water = didgeridoo


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## jace89 (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks fellas, il use that sizing to pick it.

Cheers


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## jace89 (Apr 21, 2012)

So mines 29" wide which apparently for my height is a 240cm paddle. If im correct.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Not that I am opinionated or anything, but 225cm, 230cm and 240cm are all crap sizes. Even at 6'2". Do a bit of a search, there has been some discussion on this. In the mean time let me try to give some off the cuff guidance.

1. Hands should be on the shaft at roughly a comfortable distance apart that roughly matches the outside width of your shoulders.

2. With paddle in hand sitting on the yak, rest your hand on the edge of your yak at roughly your hip location. The blade should be fully buried in the water, and the splash guard should be fully clear of the water.

I'll be stuffed if the result will be a paddle 240cm long unless your shoulders are almost as wide as you are tall. Excessive paddle length very quickly converts to poor paddle style and injuries.

Of course if you only ever paddle a few k at a hit, then what the hell. Try the stretch over the paddle thing, it's bollocks, but wouldn't matter too much.

I'm about 5'11" and my prefered length is 212cm. But maybe I've got stumpy arms or something or simply haven't got a clue.


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## jace89 (Apr 21, 2012)

I agree. The size sounds ridicoulous and hardly any suppliers sell in that size.
My yak is quiet wide so I think as far as id go is 230 but 220cm seems the average most paddles iv asked are using


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

jace89 said:


> I agree. The size sounds ridicoulous and hardly any suppliers sell in that size.
> My yak is quiet wide so I think as far as id go is 230 but 220cm seems the average most paddles iv asked are using


Of course you are right jace - width of your ride definitely impacts this, and to be fair my main yak is quite thin. Just in case you hadnt picked it up - on the presumption that you are not looking at carbon or other super-high end paddles... Plastic blades are absolutely fine. Aluminium shafts should be avoided, glass shafts in some ways can be better than carbon.


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## jace89 (Apr 21, 2012)

Why avoided? Weight factors?


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

jace89 said:


> Why avoided? Weight factors?


No "give". Glass is much more forgiving than metal, has a bit of flex. That way your body doesn't directly take the paddling stress.


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## labrat (Jul 25, 2008)

Here's some more info/opinion to confuse you. Interesting to note what he considers a "heavy" paddle. The only paddles I've seen advertised at 24 oz or less were expensive cabon fibre ones.

http://www.northwestcanoe.com/JW BuyPaddle.html

I've heard the theory that rigid paddles put more stress on the paddler and also the opposing one that says flexible paddles waste energy while flexing. Being the skeptic I am I don't believe either of these would be noticeable by most of us.
One thing I don't like about Al shafts is that they can suck the heat out of your hands on a cold day.


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## ArWeTherYet (Mar 25, 2007)

labrat said:


> Here's some more info/opinion to confuse you. Interesting to note what he considers a "heavy" paddle. The only paddles I've seen advertised at 24 oz or less were expensive cabon fibre ones.
> 
> http://www.northwestcanoe.com/JW BuyPaddle.html
> 
> ...


You do realize there talking about canoe paddles. :?

Its best to learn how to paddle correctly and then get a suitable paddle.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

labrat said:


> I've heard the theory that rigid paddles put more stress on the paddler and also the opposing one that says flexible paddles waste energy while flexing. Being the skeptic I am I don't believe either of these would be noticeable by most of us.


I totally get the skeptic thing but give this one a try. I don't think the differences are subtle. (carbon feels different to glass too, less forgiving unless you are careful with selection.)



Occulator said:


> dru said:
> 
> 
> > But maybe I've got stumpy arms or something or simply haven't got a clue.
> ...


Secret's out! Guess you know why I fish from a SIK.


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

230 being crap Occy, seriously... Remind me of that bladeless Clear Blue Haiwaii sizing?

Most people are initially here to fish, not participate in an iron man event, paddle a sea kayak for days, upgrade to a Stealth...

Nothing wrong with being versed in kayak propulsion and expressing your opinions, but did we check out his kayak and the seated arangement?


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

paffoh said:


> 230 being crap Occy, seriously... Remind me of that bladeless Clear Blue Haiwaii sizing?
> 
> Most people are initially here to fish, not participate in an iron man event, paddle a sea kayak for days, upgrade to a Stealth...
> 
> Nothing wrong with being versed in kayak propulsion and expressing your opinions, but did we check out his kayak and the seated arangement?


Interesting. I know this aims at Paul, but still I Thought this was going close:


dru said:


> With paddle in hand sitting on the yak, rest your hand on the edge of your yak at roughly your hip location. The blade should be fully buried in the water, and the splash guard should be fully clear of the water.


But it's tricky to give clear advice in a short statement. In terms of not being interested in distance sea kayaking or iron man events, thought this sort of expressed It.



dru said:


> Of course if you only ever paddle a few k at a hit, then what the hell.


I take it with your response Paffoh that this is a paddle selection for a Hobie? Possibly PA? That shouldn't stop paddle advice being given where it is asked. The basics remain the same for a Hobie. Paddles selected by fishing yakkers (based on advice from yak sales outlets perhaps) tend to be too long, encourage poor paddling style, and run the risk of injury. This is not specific to Hobie but is a generalization that has some accuracy whatever the outlet. As a group we do not have good level of paddling technique and get away with it to some degree because of short distance paddled. But advice will be given on the basis of reducing long term injury. Well at least you shouldn't be surprised anyway.

If something is different for fishing yaks it is that technical strokes are even more important IMO. Maybe a different view could be taken here on a Hobie but not by me. Perhaps it could be explained that on the really wide yaks (again not Hobie specific) a downside of the resulting stability and deck space is somewhat constrained paddling performance?

And Paul's advice is surrounded with plenty of good thinking by Scater, AWTY and others. Context is needed.


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

Strange, not Hobie specific at all, not sure where you got that Idea? (Paddle a Pro Angler, are you mad?). Suggesting 230 or 240 is a ridiculous sizing suggests your shorter, have a narrower kayak and may of had lessons and paddle like Grant Kenny (Considering Occy has none of that in spades it was directed at him). However your perhaps being a little too generic in your assumptions, but given this is a healthy debate lets lay my cards on the table. Nobody is going to truly understand issues like cadence and rotation, or even high or low angle paddling with correct technique unless:

A). They have had experience paddling at some stage in their life before

B). They have had lessons explaining the correct technique

C). They have the kayak to match

In my experiences taller people (Over 6') can get away with using low angle paddling techniques with a long paddle without risk of injury. While recreational paddlers (People who come to paddle, with high angle techniques) can get away with a lot shorter. Taken all these things into account, in many instances the longer the paddle the less strain on the body occurs as paddling technique improves while a shorter paddle will require a lot more effort in the long run and require a higher blade angle when entering the blade in the water (As well as perfect technique to avoid injury).

The thing is I'm betting 99% of people on here have not had lessons, encouraging them to do so is fine however recommending a shorter shaft paddle in the interim (Hoping that they will get lessons) will probably develop into bad low angle touring style techniques with a paddle far too short (Thus risking injury even more). Surely it would be best to keep in mind that many anglers fishing from kayaks will adopt a low angle style without even knowing . Quick strokes with a shorter paddle may be more efficient but If you're out for a long fish with plenty of gear onboard a longer paddle requires far less effort in the long run, especially to newbies who would be happy with a $130 Carlisle than a $600 Werner.

Speaking of Werner, take a test run using the OP figures, and then yours... Let me know any further assumptions?

http://www.wernerpaddles.com/fit_guide/fit_guide.php


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## ArWeTherYet (Mar 25, 2007)

I'm not sure why you would think a longer paddle would be easier on the shoulders than a short one?
The thing is most newbies I see tend, for what ever reason (maybe using you tube) use a high angle stoke, which puts huge strain on there shoulders, cause they dont do it right.

If your going to use a long paddle get a low volume blade and use a low angle slow stroke. I saw an old bloke recently paddling his sea kayak while leaning back in his seat, using slow low angle stokes, he had huge shoulders and looks like he'd been doing it that way forever.....obviously works for him.

Shorter paddles are more effiant and give you a better ability to maneuver, brace etc.......but you need to know how to use one. Dragging the blade back past your shoulder can cause injury, so you rotate your torso to prevent that from happening. Also need to sit up straight and lean slightly forwards.

So what do you recommend? I would recommend doing some lessons, that way you'll learn how best to paddle with out causing injury. Other than that use a low volume blade, which will be more forgiving for poor paddling technique. If you use a long paddle use a low angled slow stroke.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

OK, off beam on the Hobie. I just didnt understand where you were coming from.

To answer your question: 210cm. Werner are not so off the mark as I was dreading. 212cm is my usual setting whether paddling the SIK or the Swing (offsetting yak width partly is seat on the hull in the SIK and raised a bit on the SOT). Interestingly I would probably stretch to 214-215cm for the Stealth 575. No doubt if you plug in "low paddle style" changes results. As AWTY blade selection should definitely match if you go that way.

Think we can all agree that taking lessons is an ideal start point.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Another quick point. If you are fond of a low paddle style and long paddles try a Greenland Stick. Not a homemade job with the ends widened up that looks like a europaddle from the '60s but a true never wider than 3" greenland stick.

Never now you might like it.


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## Guest (May 8, 2012)

.........................


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

ArWeTherYet said:


> I'm not sure why you would think a longer paddle would be easier on the shoulders than a short one?
> The thing is most newbies I see tend, for what ever reason (maybe using you tube) use a high angle stoke, which puts huge strain on there shoulders, cause they dont do it right.
> 
> If your going to use a long paddle get a low volume blade and use a low angle slow stroke. I saw an old bloke recently paddling his sea kayak while leaning back in his seat, using slow low angle stokes, he had huge shoulders and looks like he'd been doing it that way forever.....obviously works for him.
> ...


I guess the main reasons why is that most beginners to the sport, wont understand that a longer paddle probably requires additional rotation to avoid excess strain on shoulders (So tend to take it easy). They will most likely think that the result, be it poor paddling technique or whatever, is rudiment to what they are trying to achive. As you mentioned, in your experiences, most beginners try and emulate an effeicient high stroke (In the wrong manner). I see lots of people doing the opposite, falling into line with either a paddle thats supplied or whats reccomended as an additional purchase by paddling low and slow. Advice is sage in many forms but without members having lessons erring on the longer paddle side of caution would probably be in the OP's best interest.

Lazy skinny blade touring/paddling is a sin worth avoiding in many peoples eyes but if you dont have a boat to match the high angled output its really the only choice,. What I would reccomend is with that kayak and his size that 230cm wont cause him any issues at all (As long as blade size is refined and understands gripping shaft shoulder width). However if the user wants to paddle for fitness (Or the utter thrill of it) over pleasure then definately get lessons. What works for you wont work for him, thats pretty much a given (Especially if you compare height and weight ratio and experience). What says 210cm for you, with skill set input, definately wont say 210cm for anyone with his build (Unless paddling experience is way above par). The Werner guide was an example, many other sites online, along with water sports stockists will dictate the same results. The recommendations on sizes, if you just want to go fishing, are more than adequate for day to day use.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

paffoh said:


> . What says 210cm for you, with skill set input, definately wont say 210cm for anyone with his build (Unless paddling experience is way above par). The Werner guide was an example, many other sites online, along with water sports stockists will dictate the same results. The recommendations on sizes, if you just want to go fishing, are more than adequate for day to day use.


Paf, you haven't given us your Werner results. I didn't set this challenge.

Longer thin blades if you insist on long shafts is an absolute concurrence. But it is still NOT the right start point. To suggest 240cm is cool, and by default you are, is letting this person down. Out of interest, another of your challenges was do we know what boat goes with this. Do you?

I had taken short cuts in my advice in this area (such as what is the yak) as Paddle questions had been answered so many times. Not so boring that advice shouldn't be given. I'll be more cautious from here.

But buddy, your approach imvho is at least as lacksadaisical as mine was. And I'm interested in your current challenge. Could have been laid out many times in the last two years.

What has changed?


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

dru said:


> paffoh said:
> 
> 
> > . What says 210cm for you, with skill set input, definately wont say 210cm for anyone with his build (Unless paddling experience is way above par). The Werner guide was an example, many other sites online, along with water sports stockists will dictate the same results. The recommendations on sizes, if you just want to go fishing, are more than adequate for day to day use.
> ...


Werner challenge accepted, player two start:

Paddle Type:	Touring	
Paddle Style:	Low Angle	
Blade Size: Mid Size	
Shaft Type: Straight Shaft	
Shaft Diameter: Standard Diameter Shaft	
Material: Recreational Touring	
Your Height: over 6'	
Boat Width: over 28"

(Recommended Length: 240 cm)

Strange as I expected 230cm to appear, not 240cm as suggested (10cm in total extra, 5cm on each side if held in middle). I mentioned have you looked at his kayak before making original recommendations (Not recently, everyone has by this stage), not what is the perfect size yak to go with a 240cm paddle. I suggested 230cm as my original post, with an optional idea of 240 if he wants to be a slacker, pretty sure I did the Werner test with his figures and got 230cm last night (May of been 240cm). Nothing against his kayak by the way, but the puzzle that needs solving is unique enough to have you say words I dont hear often. No need to be cautious around here, Im two days away from the due date of my second child and to be honest I have nothing better to do.

Nothings changed, I have been paddling for 6 years with a style that would make men weep, using a 230cm paddle. Definately not the paddles fault as at one stage I was 25kg's overweight and struggling to turn a blade. I dont offset my paddle, do get involved in the occasional stoush online governing opinions, have tried smaller paddles for longer periods of time, do have a mate that I know who has had lessons of some sort (Coincidently used a smaller paddle with a huge kayak), do seek advice on whats good for the gander. Not sure what two years has to do with anything, unless the threads have been piling up in the vault from way back when. You flip the coin, you talk about heads while I chase the tail... Especially if Occy compares paddle length to his height!

I used a 240cm paddle on the weekend trolling 3.834kmph for Trout for hours on end and sat up super straight (Straighter than normal). Using my core I was suprised that the high angle I required
to stay clear of my forward rod holders perpendicular lines was actually easier to achieve with rotation than without with a smaller paddle. I know, useless information but it worked for me and my broad shoulders. Im all upper body with no core, swimmers physique with a pot belly on sunday mornings, and changed styles throughout the day. My Hobie Quest paddles pretty well considering, but its no TK1 in the speed stakes. I hope the OP puts the kayak on the roof and goes to a real shop and gets some diction from those in the know, rather than buying shelf stock at Rays Outdoors.

Interesting few nights on the keys, love it.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Targeting Paul on politics is one thing. Here we are on topic. Or on forum. Take your fun. Wrong place though.


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

dru said:


> Targeting Paul on politics is one thing. Here we are on topic. Or on forum. Take your fun. Wrong place though.


I dont do politics with mates, never have (Never will), stick well clear, he is just not very, erm... Tall.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

paffoh said:


> dru said:
> 
> 
> > Targeting Paul on politics is one thing. Here we are on topic. Or on forum. Take your fun. Wrong place though.
> ...


Answers itself, perhaps?


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

dru said:


> paffoh said:
> 
> 
> > dru said:
> ...


Depends, better ask Paul that (Wait, there was a question?).


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## jace89 (Apr 21, 2012)

Yeah Iv had 3 different kayak shops give me 3 different paddle sizes, But going off what iv heard Im going to find something around 215-220 because I have got a wide yak, compared to alot of the skinnier yaks most fellas use.
Im not spending a big budget so CF is not an option and if I find a cheap glass one il get it but I think my first ones proly going to be a decent Al shaft.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Jace, maybe it helps to understand something of what is happening here. This has been a much argued matter in kayaking for a long time. Seems to have caught up with yakking. This history is somewhat butchered and inaccurate but gives the gist I think.

A. It used to be quite common to recommend longer (comparatively) paddles combined with longer narrower blades for "cruising". A lower hand position results. I think the idea is that it allows/encourages a longer stroke running past the hip, and with it a slower cadence. The slower cadence may feel more cruisey.

B. At the same time racing/performance strokes went to shorter strokes - 40%ish of the power from the stroke happens in the first 6" to 8" of the stroke. Then you go faster by increasing cadence. This works to a more vertical style, needs a shorter Paddle, runs better with a shorter wider (more square) blade.

C. For actual racing, "B" has been irrelevant since the wing blade was developed. In my mind what happened was that cadence in racing got so high there was no more to be had "from more paddle strokes per minute" as they were already at max. Longer stroke was required even if the back end of the stroke is not as powerfull as the front. Blades also developed so they didn't pull through the water as much. Harder on the body I think, but faster. Paddle style changed with it.

For yakking purposes, my suggestion is we ignore "C" - once a paddler is sufficiently experienced to move to a wing blade they won't really need forum advice, I think.

Naturally companies like Werner (probably the world's no #1 paddle manufacture, and in the context of this thread a bloody good challenge) will continue making paddles for both A and B (and C and whitewater and SUP and...)

For yakking, things are further confused because the typical yak is comparatively wide. Often very wide. There is a possibly natural inclination to widen hand position closer to yak width, and to use a longer paddle. The problem is a stroke that is all arm and shoulder muscle, sweeping strokes. Ignoring the injury risk it can be tiring. But I have failed to keep up with an over muscled Schwarzneggar type paddling this way against my sleek long super-SIK. I had done some 15k at this stage but as we joined mid harbour, probably he had too. Muscle can overcome style, if not injury risk.

At the end of the day it is not actually about the length of paddle. :shock: sorry :shock: it's about rotation of the torso in the paddle stroke. I dont know if this makes sense, but looking down from above, the closer the paddle forces are focussed on the centre, which reduces strain on the body. This is done by rotation around the spine. And there are any number of ways this can be done. As long as it is done the paddle stroke is in control.

A lower paddle style, with good rotation (resulting in low risk of long term injury) will not be as efficient or as fast as a shorter paddle, more vertical style, shorter stroke higher cadence. But if both are based around good rotation it probably doesn't matter. And of course, loosing 15-20% ( not a scientific value just an example) of power/speed doesn't matter in your average yak as you are already pushing the limits of natural max yak speed anyway. But make sure the blade shape suits what you are doing.

So everything Paffoh has said is correct. The more detailed explanation is not always helpful. Ive been trying to avoid lengthy tedious quasi-technical posts, I guess.

All the above is summarized by my opinion: a novice selecting a shorter paddle has a much better chance of encouraging rotation, hence a better chance of reducing risk of long term injury.


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## ArWeTherYet (Mar 25, 2007)

jace89 said:


> Yeah Iv had 3 different kayak shops give me 3 different paddle sizes, But going off what iv heard Im going to find something around 215-220 because I have got a wide yak, compared to alot of the skinnier yaks most fellas use.
> Im not spending a big budget so CF is not an option and if I find a cheap glass one il get it but I think my first ones proly going to be a decent Al shaft.


Mate dont get an alloy shaft, there heavy and hurt your hands, also the blades are usually too weak. Basically the bare minimum should be a glass shaft with a lumpy bit for your right hand, some drip rings and some nice stiff plastic blades.
If you knuckles are hitting the sides of your kayak you need to rotate more and use a little more angle on your stroke. Dont drag your shoulders back when your paddling.


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## jace89 (Apr 21, 2012)

I havent found any glass shafts in my price range as of yet.
-Dru As I do understand the conflicted opinions im not going for speed but It helps to know how to paddle well to avoid straining over time.
Iv paddled a canoe for a while now, and I know how much it can hurt if your doing it wrong.


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

jace89 said:


> I havent found any glass shafts in my price range as of yet.
> -Dru As I do understand the conflicted opinions im not going for speed but It helps to know how to paddle well to avoid straining over time.
> Iv paddled a canoe for a while now, and I know how much it can hurt if your doing it wrong.


Mostly if you get it wrong big time on the spot you will "strip your gears". This is pretty rare but does happen. And it isnt comfortable. Getting back on the water takes time. Longer term injury is the more common scenario. I know a couple of guys for who it meant the end of yakking. The key is paddle style, specifically around torso rotation. As AWTW has said, a few lessons go a long way.

So, the aluminium shaft... if commercial issues constrain paddle choice, I'm tempted to say just get on the water. Did a quick search and can't say I rally found anything under $150. But it would be very high on the list for upgrade asap.


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## jace89 (Apr 21, 2012)

Well iv got 6 more months before college life money, then real money = new rods and new paddle!


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