# The boys in blue



## simond11 (Aug 29, 2005)

This morning travelling along Military Road heading towards The Spit, a police car flashes its lights behind me. This would have been around 0530 this morning. I have a VW Golf with Thule roof racks and transporting my 15' Prowler kayak.
The cop tells me that the kayak is not forward enough and that by law, I should not be travelling at night without reflectors on the back of the kayak. The kayak was not beyond the rear of the car, nor was it beyond the front of the car. He also told me that if i wanted to transport the kayak during the daytime, I needed to go to Bunnings and buy a red flag that I need to attach on the rear of the kayak.
Moral of the story is I got breathalised and given a $120 fine (for the kayak, not the breathaliser!).
Now I am a law abiding citizen, but honestly this morning smacked a bit of revenue raising for Easter. I have never seen a kayak carried on roof racks with reflectors and a red flag at the back of it.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I am sure it's the law, but it seems hardly anyone does it, and frankly, I had never heard of it.
Expensive fishing trip, especially when I caught zippo!!
Cheers

Simon
Prowler 15


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## Crikey (Oct 30, 2005)

Simon,

Sounds as if you lucked out on this one. I have been stopped several times while driving out to Balmoral via Military Road for RBT's, I would say that there would be a better than 50% chance of a RBT patrol along Military Road in the early hours of any Saturday or Sunday. None of the times that I have been stopped has the yak ever been mentioned. The Classic overhangs the back of my Freelander by several feet, I have recently bought one of the Bunnings 50c warning flags not so much to comply with any regs but to prevent the odd dickhead from running into the yak at lights.


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

Sheeeeeeeet !!!! Thats a bit rough !!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Peril (Sep 5, 2005)

Kraley's googling accords with my understanding. Red flag is only required if there is an overhang. If you have the time to attend the magistrates' court I would to stop this kind of abuse. And if you have the stomach for it, the tabloid papers and TV love this sort of thing


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## justcrusin (Oct 1, 2006)

Simond the boys are right, I have carried lots of loads of timber over the years that have stuck out lots at both ends, 1.2m before your need a flag or reflecters, if it hangs over the side you need a few flags on the protruding side.

I would write a letter challenging it first with a photo of the yak it might make them see sense and not go to court.

Cheers Dave


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## kayakity-yak (May 31, 2007)

Gday Simon, nice meeting you today. Bugger you didn't catch anything. I had to cut my session short as my crook back gave out on me but got some lunch anyway.


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## yankatthebay (Dec 14, 2007)

I would suggest you simply go down to your local RTA and play dumb.

Tell them you are planning on transporting a Kayak on your roof racks, and get them to tell you exactly what you need. They normally back up everything they say with booklets and rule books. And then hopefully they tell you what you already know, and that you were doing nothing wrong.

If that is then the case, write a short letter to that effect and put the fine slip and the letter in an envelope and send it to where the fine says to send the cheque.
I would expect you to get a letter in the mail with 2 weeks with an apology from the State Revenue office.

As long as you first get the answer from the RTA, and if they tell you that you are OK to do what you have done. Then there is no way they can enforce a fine.

I have fought tickets before, and as long as you can put a doubt into the minds of the authorities, then you normally get away with it. That being said, you cant make stuff up. Make sure you take note of dates and locations of any info gathered, including which RTA office you visited with date and times.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Simond 11, its a pity you didnt get out the digital camera and photograph the rig at the spot the policeman booked you , and ask him to certify that the date and time were correct , if the case is as you have stated you would recveive as letter from the police , not the RTA that you should attend court or that they were withdrawing the offence , as far as attending the RTA , i think its a good idea , but just to ask for their information and any literature on the matter , they will not edudiciate on the matter , as its been issued by the police and its up to them to either continue or withdraw At any rate , i would take several photos of the kayak on the vehicle and submit with affidavits from at least 2 witnesses that this is the normal and only possible method of loading , , and submit all to the police edudication centre for appraisal .


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

This is fairly standard behavior nowadays from a lot of our police  , whom I was brought up to respect :roll: . Basically if you take it to court it will end up costing you more in lost earnings etc than the fine is worth but people will tell you that if you don't do something then this sort of thing will continue  . If you do something about it and win it will continue anyway so something that brings it to light that doesn't cost you is, in my honest opinion, the way to go. I was told once that I was more cynical than I had a right to be for my age, to which I answered," the word is realism and I'm obviously a fast learner." :lol: I personally would probably let it go and chalk another one up to experience. Sigh.....I hate to sound like an old bloke but.....it used to be so different when I was a lad :shock: :shock: ...lol. :lol: 
Cheers
Mike


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## Huwie (Mar 16, 2008)

Seems there's a law against everything. If the cop wants to write you a ticket he will find something to get you for. He must have been having a bad day. I imagine he would have had a fit at my $69 padded temporary roof racks.

A golf is 13.8ft long, if your yak is 15ft you shouldnt have any trouble fighting it though.


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## enyaw (Jan 21, 2008)

Simon,

I have a very close friend who is a police officer and he reckons you should do as yank said then send a letter to the officer in charge of this coppers section, details should be on the ticket.

This alleged offence should be a non life threatening offence and could have been dealt with by a caution, and the load fixed on the spot.

Did the police officer take photo's? Did the police officer physically measure the overhang? Was he recording the conversation that he had with you? What are the dimensions of the yak and car?

Bring all these things in the letter. Dont go to the media until all avenues are attempted.

Good luck

Wayne


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## baitwasta (May 24, 2007)

I agree with most of the other guys - you've had some good advice- a 50cent stamp Vrs $120 fine, just don't send the cheque with the letter, they never come back, good luck , JohnO


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## yankatthebay (Dec 14, 2007)

I dont see the harm in going 80+ around a corner as long as you stay in control of the car and you dont harm anyone. I used to have a '97 Excel that I used to do 80kms though roundabouts, I always was sure to make sure I was in complete control and never did it in the wet, and as long as it was safe to do I saw no harm in it.
Probably best that I dont have it anymore though...and NO, I didnt crash it, I sold it in good working order.


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## simond11 (Aug 29, 2005)

Yes, thanks for all the advice, but is it really worth $120 to follow up? Don't think so. The cop told me the offence was worth $120 and asked me to blow in the breathaliser. I was puzzled though, when he told me not to move the kayak (which BTW, certainly did not protrude 1.2mtrs from the back) as I had offered. He asked me where I was going and then walked off. I asked a friend of mine about the fine, and she was as puzzled as I was, as she thought he would have written one out. He didn't. I assumed that as he had immediately told me what the fine was, that he was going to send it out? But that doesn't make sense either. He didn't say: "I will let you off with a warning" or words to that effect. I guess I will wait in the next week or so and see whether I get anything in the mail. 
Very strange. If I get a fine, it's a bummer. if I don't, it will be a very weird way of cautioning someone, but at least everyone on this forum is now aware of what the rules are for transporting a kayak/s. Certainly was an eye opener for me! Hope it won't be an expensive Easter for me.
Thanks for all the comments.
Cheers

Simon
Prowler 15

P.S If the rules are such, then can we print a red AKFF flag? Might as well advertise our load!


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## Huwie (Mar 16, 2008)

Sounds like he let you off, he'd have written it out surely.

Just be careful advertising your load, you can get in trouble for that kind of thing :shock:


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## rob316 (Oct 2, 2007)

As he was probably part of a RBT patrol , he isn't really interested in minor traffic offences...that is up to the highway patrol , most units are given instructions/duties for their shift and any minor offences not within their assigned shifts are usually overlooked...it's a paperwork thing and a knowledge thing...not every cop can know every law and patrol everywhere...therefore different duties for different cops . He might have quoted the fine and the possible offence , but it wasn't under his instuctions for the day . Thats why every now and then you might think you were lucky to get away with something even though a police officer saw you , it just wasn't his/her instructions to book anyone for that during their shift...yet other police in the same area might be sweating on what you did...just how it works.....you were not booked , you would have known then and there , and asked to fix the load before you left . 8)


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

Simon to my mind you haven't been booked but rather worked over by an officious cop who wants to justify his authority....however if a fine does come in th post I would certainly challenge as suggested earlier


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

Have to agree, it sounds like you've been " let off" even though you hadn't done anything wrong. Obviously nothing better to do on a slow night. I wonder whether they've found my car stereo yet. I'ts only been ten years and they must have pulled over every car in oz by now. I don'y think they're really trying to find it you know....lol. I would be very suprised to hear that you got something in the mail....that's usually for cameras , red light and speed.


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## flea (Jan 24, 2008)

RRRyyrrrr
I know what happend he missed out you copped it.
This is crap i feel sorry for you they get a bee in there bonet & they think they are god.
Simon I would fight it if you have been find,take a pic of the yak on the car for legal reasons.
Kym.


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

I'm sure Simond didnt mean this to be a cop bashing thread , so it would be nice not to let it degenerate into one ,if he didnt get an on the spot then he wasnt booked , police are human like all of us and some have really bad days that the normal individual could not imagine , so they may be a little over officious sometimes , but believe me when your in a very bad situation where some insane total stranger is about to try to stick a knife through you , and 2 friendly men in blue turn up and put their lives right on the line , you will learn to appreciate the job they do a lot more and understand that they too have really bad days .


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## simond11 (Aug 29, 2005)

Definitely not meant to be a thread criticizing the police. All I wanted to do is let other members aware of the rules of transporting kayaks, something I was blissfully unaware of. The policeman involved was very polite, but kind of threw me when he told me the fine. I automatically assumed I was booked.
These guys do a hell of a lot in the community and put their lives on the line for us. I am sure that in their industry, as in all industries, there are a few bad apples. The one I encountered was certainly not one of them.
Cheers

Simon
Prowler 15


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## andybear (Jan 15, 2006)

I have been sort of waiting for this one to raise its head.....I guess it could happen here in Queensland too, it just a matter of time before one of our locals get blitzed. I have to put my yak on a trailer, and the overhang would be more than 1.2 metres. What I have used is one of those reflective vests, that you can pick up from super cheap and places like that, for less than $20. My main concern, is that a pedestrian my walk into that back of the yak, and harm themselves on the rudder setup. The reflective vest flaps around very nicely in the slipstream, I think if it ever came to the crunch, a magistrate would regard it as a suitable device for the job.

Yes, its always a dilemma, whether or not to cough up the dough, or fight on in court. Normally I am one to praise the police, in all they do, but I guess its like any other job these days...perform perform perform....your stats are being measured.

Happy Easter everybody

Cheers Andybear


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

andybear said:


> My main concern, is that a pedestrian my walk into that back of the yak, and harm themselves on the rudder setup. The reflective vest flaps around very nicely in the slipstream, I think if it ever came to the crunch, a magistrate would regard it as a suitable device for the job.


Andy on the very rare occasion I have had the Swing on my wife's Civic and sticking past the car [but within overhang limits], I have always tied a rag on the yak's aft carry handle as an assist for pedestrians, and have been passed by police cars who ignored me.....think appearing to have taken precautions would sway most magistrates if it came to the crunch


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Simon , i know you started this thread , not as a criticism of police , but to get opinions on what is best to do and also inform us all of our responsibilities , thank you sunshine , Do absolutely nothing mate , and if you receive a notice in the mail , which you wont , then act , i am absolutely sure you wernt booked , he was on RBT duties and thats it . Now as far as the red flag at the rear of the kayak , mate you have given me a wake up call , i will be putting one of those cheap reflective vests on mine next time out , not so much from the point of view of the law , but i live in fear of the truckies misjudging the distance from them to the rear of the yaks , and some of them get pretty close to have a good look , the Quest would stand a bump , but the TK! would end up in bits . Simon thanks for the timely reminder


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## JD (Jul 2, 2006)

I'll have to put a red flag on a red kayak :?


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## yankatthebay (Dec 14, 2007)

if you didnt actually get given a ticket on the spot, then they wont likely post one to you. No real need to worry. We all thought you had been given the ticket already.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2008)

I used to drag my yaks around on the back of a box trailer and the overhang was substantial. I didnt have a red flag so instead I grabbed on old pair of red undies and stuck them on the back of the yak with a cable tie! 8)

I was aware of the red flag business from my dads teachings, he drove log trucks for many years and it was standard practice to pin the log overhanging the furthest with a red flag. The idea being it blows in the wind which gives the person following a good idea of the distance between his vehicle and the overhanging item. Without the flag the eyes can play tricks and distance is hard to judge.

I was followed by some coppers on a long trip and wasnt pulled over so I guess the undies did the trick :lol:


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## Brownie (Aug 15, 2007)

Dallas said:


> I used to drag my yaks around on the back of a box trailer and the overhang was substantial. I didnt have a red flag so instead I grabbed on old pair of red undies and stick them on the back of the yak with a cable tie! 8)
> 
> I was followed by some coppers on a long trip and wasnt pulled over so I guess the undies did the trick :lol:


I hope they were clean :shock: :lol:


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## enyaw (Jan 21, 2008)

Simon,

If the police officer did not give you ticket there and then you will be safe.

Thanks for the reminder though, it sounds trivial but a overhang can be quite dangerous to others.

Thanks

Wayne


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## bushwoodboy (Oct 5, 2006)

Simon,
I was pulled up for having my surfboard protruding to far out the side window of my car.
He measured how far it was sticking out, wrote me a ticket & made me reload it before I could proceed.
Had to make my girl friend at the time hop in the back seat, lay the passenger seat down & have the board lying beside me.
Geez she was happy about that :lol: 
So I think you should be in the clear mate.
Cheers Mal


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## Duane (Oct 20, 2007)

I know a few cops and have a lot of respect for most of them as I know some of what goes on behind the scenes and there's a lot more to the job than most of the public see's.

Having said that I also know they sometimes get it wrong, every one has bad days.

A friend from work was sent a caution in the mail for failing to produce their recreational fishing license (cray diving) to the water police. He had it onboard and offered it to the officer who declined it. That part was mildly incompetent.
The really bad part is that there is no requirement to carry a recreational fishing license while fishing. It's not even an offence. The govt website tells you that you now have a valid license once the payment goes through and the license will arrive in the mail within 10 days.
A polite letter was sent to the coppers senior officer explaining the situation and an apology letter was returned from the senior officer.

So it was all sorted without drama.


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## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

My kayak overhangs the rear bumper by more than the legal limit, so I've got to use a flag. My kayak cover has a built in flag on the back.










When not in use, the cover can be folded up and stored in the red bag.
Danuu Kayak Covers

I have yet to come up with a satisfactory lighting arrangement to use at night. I've got a red LED, but I need to come up with some sort of clamp to hold it on my rudder mount. I've lost a couple that were not securely fastened and I don't want that to happen again.


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## Sparra (Nov 3, 2007)

enyaw said:


> Simon,
> 
> If the police officer did not give you ticket there and then you will be safe.
> 
> ...


My son was pulled up at an RBT and the officer commented that he couldn't see his P-plates very clearly and said that when he gets home to fix them up...3 weeks later he gets a fine in the mail for not displaying P-plates and looses 2 points so just because you didn't get it there and then doesn't mean you won't get it....

Cheers...Sparra


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## alpha (Aug 18, 2006)

QUOTE:"I'm sure Simond didnt mean this to be a cop bashing thread"
Did he see the tackle in the car?
It was prob. a GREENY with authority :twisted:  
I got busted for a traffic offence about 18 mths ago(was quoted by the officer $150 fine),...bout 3 weeks later I recieved 
a $300 fine in the mail :shock:
I'd write in your findings as suggested aswel as concider the good deed you've done by bringing it to our awareness,
Thanks simon & I hope you dont get the fine.


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## FishinRod (Mar 2, 2007)

Queensalnd Transport have issued the foolowing brochure:
http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resourc ... ochure.pdf

In brief, for smaller vehicles(not trucks that are up to maximum legal dimensions) your load can't project past your headlights by more than 1.2M. If it hangs out the back by more than 1.2M, then you should have a red, yellow or red & yellow flag 450 mm square on the end of the load by day. At night it should have either reflectors or a light visible for at least 200M at the end of the load.
I can only see this as being a problem with the longer yaks & smaller cars.


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## buddahbelly (Mar 18, 2008)

Sounds like the local boys in blue had a big quota for the easter period, and yes they often send tickets out later


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## ohagas (Dec 4, 2006)

Simon, sorry to dig up the past, but did you ever get fined for this?


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## ringo (Oct 3, 2008)

So let me get this straight.

1) the cop was polite
2) you didn't get a ticket

Gee, that sounds like he was a real prick.


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## reavesey (May 10, 2009)

Old boys saying. Once a copper never a man. Always exceptions. And why judges treat child fiddlers so well. Bloke smokes some weed gets huge fine or long imprisonment. People do disgusting things like murder or above mentioned and only get couple of years or nothin. Justice system is rediculous. Wonder why alot of people have no respect for the law. Old cops had the right idea. Uni schooled cops with no life experience r filling the courts with crap and not finding enough evidence to put the really nasty away where they belong.Not enough traffic cops to stop the tools either.Societies down turn has a lot to do with the calibur of our police. Its a problem that we all r liable for.


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## simond11 (Aug 29, 2005)

Hey guys
No, I never received a fine for this. As I said before in the thread, the police officer was very nice about the whole thing and just pointed out that because the kayak was protruding beyond the rear of the Golf (I wonder how many kayaks don't, unless you have a 17ft car), I needed to have a red or orange flag attached to the back of the yak and reflective stickers...I think he said. He was really nice about the whole thing, and no...he didn't issue a ticket.
Cheers


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## LesSimmo (Jul 26, 2009)

Simon,

That was bad luck, but a challenge would be best. Although I would send a letter with the whole story and photos of the rig to Skippy (The Commissioner). He is a reasonable man.

I noticed that one earlier post mentioned you going to the RTA and recording the conversation. Be very careful to get the written permission (or record permission) as you might be breaking the law without permission and might end up in prison if you try and use the recording in court.


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## Big D (Apr 28, 2007)

ringo said:


> So let me get this straight.
> 
> 1) the cop was polite
> 2) you didn't get a ticket
> ...


LOL! :lol: We should re-title this thread 'Much Ado about NOTHING!'

Yep, the cop may not have know what he was talking about. Have a look on

http://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/browseActs.aspx

check out all the acts there are. Yep, cops don't know everything. Sure Police don't need to know all of them inside and out but there are plenty (in SA at least) that they do need to know. As for just traffic stuff, the police in SA need to know the Road Traffic Act, Road Traffic Act regulations, Australian Road Rules, Motor Vehicles Act, Motor vehicle Act Regulations, Motor Vehicles Act Vehicle Standards, the Summary Offences Act ........and then there's all the Criminal Stuff.

Man, these guys need to know more than just about any other profession. Their basic knowledge amounts to multiple degrees! They actually have to know more than a Criminal Solicitor but have to make decisions on the spot, not after researching things for days (and charging the client $250 per hour to do so! )

Lets all rally to get them paid more! ;-)


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## forbs (May 20, 2008)

Well guess you were lucky. Take note of what sparra said though, just because they don't issue a fine on the spot doesn't mean you won't get one. If Police don't want a confrontation they usually say "There may be a fine sent to you in the mail" I personally think this is brilliant police work. After hearing those words i was being nice as and yep sure enough the fine came a week later. So the policeman got some one sucking up big time, no confrontation and still got to do his revenue raising. By the way i have a few police mates and there cool so not having a go at them.


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

forbs...I'm pretty sure Simon is safe as this incident happened over 2 years ago (this is an old thread which was recently resurrected)


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## pavo (Jul 14, 2009)

I recomend you get your self a truck drivers learners hand book it states all leagl requrments for over hanging front and rear and sides and keep in in your glove box. YOU HAVE BEEN RIPPED OFF BY REVENEW RASING. I have been a truck driver for 20 years, and what has happen to you is VERY wrong.


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## Big D (Apr 28, 2007)

pavo said:


> I recomend you get your self a truck drivers learners hand book it states all leagl requrments for over hanging front and rear and sides and keep in in your glove box. YOU HAVE BEEN RIPPED OFF BY REVENEW RASING. I have been a truck driver for 20 years, and what has happen to you is VERY wrong.


What - he got pulled over for a RBT by a Polite copper and didn't get a fine :?


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## azzaroo (Aug 17, 2007)

reading through this thread is doing my head in :shock:


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## DnN (Oct 5, 2008)

As mentioned by FishinRod, http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resourc ... ochure.pdf is the brochure QLD Transport puts out to cover this issue. The law is the same in NSW but harder to find, though FishinRod was a little off the mark. Guessing the other states will be very similar

Yes a load can overhang in front of your headlights by 1.2m without dramas. A load does need a flag if it protrudes 1.2m from the rear, BUT before it can protrude 1.2m it must not exceed 60% of the wheel base measurement, which is described in the brochure.

Yes you can still get a ticket in the mail after the fact, while I have never done so myself and don't intend to, I do work with people that write those tickets and will write them all day long. They won't get written frequently as it would need to be a traffic cop/transport guy with the correct knowledge to do so. But it may happen, and it will also affect insurance.

As already mentioned, the cop was polite, a ticket wasn't written, seems hard to see why all the whinging from some different memebers is happening concerning this incident.

As for voice recording, in QLD, and I guess other states, it is legal to record a conversation you are having without asking permission, you just can't record a conversation you are not involved in.

Feel free to ask for further correct explanations, cheers.


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## badmotorfinger (Mar 15, 2010)

Davey G said:


> forbs...I'm pretty sure Simon is safe as this incident happened over 2 years ago (this is an old thread which was recently resurrected)


Yep, but you can't trust those bastards at Aust Post. Probably knocked off the fine on way to Simon's place. Never know when they will realise it is not a cheque, give up trying to cash it at local bottle-o and put it back in his post box. They're all bastards I tells ya.


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## Macbrand (Feb 15, 2010)

ringo said:


> that sounds like he was a real prick.


I see what you did there.


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## Muzakeral (Sep 19, 2008)

Good luck definetly worth a letter...they generally record infringements so you will have they evidence to access if they don't withdraw the fine


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