# clarifying" kayak"



## outriggerbev (Jan 15, 2007)

hey guys does my outrigger constitute as a kayak for the competition?


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## andybear (Jan 15, 2006)

Hi Bev,

Pretty sure that anything paddled or even not powered by petrol engine qualifies as being a yak. I think even fishing from shore if you gained access to your fishing spot ,qualifies as yak fishing.

Cheers Andybear   (note however, this is only my opinion, and not necessarily correct)


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

To my thinking if its not a rowing boat or power boat it should be eligible


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

hmmm, a curly one.

although we do welcome anyone who enjoys fishing from their 'non petrol powered watercraft', this really is a specific site for those who fish from kayaks or are thinking about fishing from kayaks..

surprisingly, we don't get many canoe (or outrigger) fishermen on this site - i guess theres a dedicated forum for the canoers - I'm sure theres also some dedicated outrigger sites out there?

I'd say that our definition of kayak is a human powered craft whose primary means of propulsion is a (2 bladed) kayak paddle (with all due respect to Hobie/Mirage Drive owners). Outriggers and canoes use single bladed paddles and completely different styles than kayaking

Also, to qualify for the comp, any fish must be caught out of the kayak (not from shore)


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## Rick (Dec 19, 2006)

Technically according to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary a kayak is a type of canoe. :shock: 
Now maybe we could cull a few by forgetting the dictionary and declaring the fish must be caught from a SOT preferably a flame/mango Elite. :lol: :lol:


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## andybear (Jan 15, 2006)

Hi all,

Looks as though I did "bad" by giving my unqualified opinion there, for which I say sorry.

Perhaps this translates as "I would like to see it as any non stinkboat, ie canoe, sail assisted, canoe/kayak, peddle or paddle or electric drive vessel with or without outriggers qualifies as a kayak for the purpose of what we do here".

I am leaning rather towards inclusion, rather than exclusion here.....no malice intended....for consideration perhaps?

Cheers all Andybear


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## sbd (Aug 18, 2006)

Davey G said:


> I'd say that our definition of kayak is a human powered craft whose primary means of propulsion is a (2 bladed) kayak paddle (with all due respect to Hobie/Mirage Drive owners). Outriggers and canoes use single bladed paddles and completely different styles than kayaking


There's no way the primary propulsion of my kayak is via a two bladed paddle, however I'd like to think that paddlecraft from dragon boats to umiaks and pedal swans should be included in the comp (though let's exclude the paddle surfers because they're too wierd).


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## pcsolutionman (Apr 9, 2007)

Davey G said:


> Also, to qualify for the comp, any fish must be caught out of the kayak (not from shore)


Davey Davey Davey, according to the monthly fishing comp rules you can catch a fish from the shore as long as you accessed the spot by yak. :lol: :lol: hey didnt you write these lol :shock: :shock:

Rules Fish entered in the competition must be legal size and must be caught from a kayak or from a place you have accessed by your kayak during the competition period. Photo showing fish must accompany the entry and must also show measuring device/ fish measurement. Fill in the following details for each entry and enter it in the relevant monthly thread along with the photo by the cut off date for that month (Tuesday 9am following the final Sunday)

Lee


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

if we got too technical on the whole thing then 99% of the forum would be ineligable as most of us paddle SOT's which technically speaking is not a kayak :shock: Just thought Id throw that pointless information up :lol:


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

Davey G said:


> surprisingly, we don't get many canoe (or outrigger) fishermen on this site - i guess theres a dedicated forum for the canoers - I'm sure theres also some dedicated outrigger sites out there?
> 
> I'd say that our definition of kayak is a human powered craft whose primary means of propulsion is a (2 bladed) kayak paddle (with all due respect to Hobie/Mirage Drive owners). Outriggers and canoes use single bladed paddles and completely different styles than kayaking
> 
> )


Dave a check of past posts will also show hairymick frequently uses a single paddle from his boats and is as keen a kayaker as anyone here on the forum...and I totally support the stance of sbd earlier


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Yeah Davey , its a paddling machine mate , so lets bend the rules just a smidgeon and let Bev have a fling at the comp , you know you want to .Really the only genuine kayak in my shed is the TK1, i dunno how those eskimos fished out of them , very clever people .


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## sitonit (Dec 29, 2006)

2 cents worth a pedal hobie isnt a kayak if you attach a sail it becomes a boat again not a kayak if you use an electric motor it isnt a kayak I always thought the forum was pretty loose on the definition of a kayak. Tough one.


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## Rick (Dec 19, 2006)

Well just can not ressist this one...would this yak qualify considering it can not be peddled or paddled?


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## sitonit (Dec 29, 2006)

not a kayak quite clearly it is a woftam


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## Bartek (Dec 12, 2007)

Surely as long as it is a "human" powered (i.e. no electric or petrol motor) kayak/canoe type then we could include it.


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## hairymick (Oct 18, 2005)

> Dave a check of past posts will also show hairymick frequently uses a single paddle from his boats and is as keen a kayaker as anyone here on the forum...and I totally support the stance of sbd earlier


Thanks Richo.

I am happy to comply with what-ever the mods come up with as a definition for a yak. However, what we loosely call kayaks are in reality, human powered platforms that have been designed or modified for fishing.

Purists would argue that the popular sit on top is not a kayak at all, regardless of how it is propelled. I would be inclined to support that argument but I really don't care that much, one way or the other.

I choose to use a single blade now, pretty much exclusively on all of my boats, be they genuine sea kayaks, flat water kayaks, Canoe/kayak hybrids, canoe or pirogue. Does my choice of blade change the nature of the boat I am paddling at the time from expedition sea kayak or other kayak into a canoe or something else altogether? I don't think it does.

Should the fact that I might choose to fish from a canoe or pirogue or a hybrid during any given comp exclude me from that comp if I choose to enter? - I hope not, but if so, I will use a true kayak - no problem.


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

Anyone that uses their physical attributes either peddling / paddling I think constitutes admission into the comps............... personally I'm not so sure about the fact that peddling , paddling to / and fishing from the land should be counted... as the art or hardship to this form of fishing is hooking / playing and landing a fish from such a small fishing 'platform' sitting down ...... when you fish from the rocks / boat / shore much of the work can be done by using your legs while playing the fish.... where from the kayak its more arms / shoulders / core .... smaller muscle groups.... harder..... as in JTs example this is a much more extreme form that can lead to personal injury and or loss of nut OOPPS sorry I meant LIFE

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

pcsolutionman said:


> Davey G said:
> 
> 
> > Also, to qualify for the comp, any fish must be caught out of the kayak (not from shore)
> ...


Jeezuz. Those rules were written in the dark ages (when the comp first started)... They simply have to be changed. To qualify for the comp all fish must be caught FROM KAYAKS (general term and meant to include all paddle/pedal powered craft - and extra points for anyone paddling a swan :shock: ). Shore based catches can't be included. (I'll go in and change it now)

As for the original question...I'm all for being 'inclusive' but I'm still undecided on whether fishing from outrigger canoes, rowboats, single sculls, pedal swans or inflatable zodiacs are what we are all here to talk about....Isn't this a kayak fishing site?


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## sbd (Aug 18, 2006)

Davey G said:


> and extra points for anyone paddling a swan


Davey, you'll blow my budget mate... Those swans aren't cheep (sic). Oh well, best flex the plastic again.


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

sbd said:


> Davey G said:
> 
> 
> > and extra points for anyone paddling a swan
> ...


As long as you aren't chicken and don't make a goose of yourself then its all good.


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## FishinRod (Mar 2, 2007)

> I disagree Davey. If SBD can manage to catch a legal kingy from a Swan boat while wearing a chicken suit ... he should get maximum points.


I reckon that it is conditional on photographic evidence of SBD wearing a chicken suit in a Swan boat on the water shown in the forum he should get the points. "I'd like to see that."


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## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

Lazybugger said:


> I disagree Davey. If SBD can manage to catch a legal kingy from a Swan boat while wearing a chicken suit ... he should get maximum points.


I'd pay cash money for pictures of that


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## sbd (Aug 18, 2006)

DGax65 said:


> I'd pay cash money for pictures of that


I'll do it, although I may look like a turkey.

Doug, I'm not sure how I'm gonna fit my hobie-pedalling test-eagles into the chicken suit though...

This fishing lark is for the birds.


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

sbd said:


> DGax65 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd pay cash money for pictures of that
> ...


paddling a swan, dressed like a chicken, acting like a turkey...... not exactly a chic magnet


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## sbd (Aug 18, 2006)

keza said:


> paddling a swan, dressed like a chicken, acting like a turkey...... not exactly a chic magnet


At least I'm not a Kiwi :wink:


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

sbd said:


> keza said:
> 
> 
> > paddling a swan, dressed like a chicken, acting like a turkey...... not exactly a chic magnet
> ...


toucan

i mean touche'


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

Hmmm seems competition brings out some interesting points. Im not sure how you can class any human powered craft as eligible on a kayak fishing site. If outriggers are allowed then whats to stop someone rowing their clinker dinghy out and anchoring up, fish, then row back to shore. Sounds like they would be eligible for the comp but its not even close to kayak fishing.

Oh and the required 50 post count to enter is being abused, Im sure it was suggested to encourage people to become more active on the forum, well it certainly did that, 50 posts with hardly a full sentance in any of them.

So, are we a kayak fishing site or a human powered craft fishing site? And since when do crabs count as a fish? This is all getting a bit funny :? When does it stop? When someone rows a dinghy out and sets a graball net and wins a comp with the fish caught on an 8hour shot...

Dont shoot the messenger, if you want to have comps with valuable prizes then these issues come up, Im just stating my opinion.

Cheers
Baldy


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## onemorecast (Apr 17, 2006)

kraley said:


> This is why the next comp prize will be an inflatable sex doll.


I'm all for this idea, but these are not as easy to fish from as you may think. (though they are easier to get onto the onto the roof)


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

onemorecast said:


> kraley said:
> 
> 
> > This is why the next comp prize will be an inflatable sex doll.
> ...


and they only have a single rod holder.
:lol:


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## yankatthebay (Dec 14, 2007)

Baldy said:


> then whats to stop someone rowing their clinker dinghy out and anchoring up, fish, then row back to shore. Sounds like they would be eligible for the comp but its not even close to kayak fishing.


If someone can row their dinghy 30km on a fishing trip, then I think they should qualify for ANY prize. They should get a special prize for being able to achieve that in the first place. If they are only going out a short distance, then I would probably not count it.

All depends on if they use their dinghy like you would your kayak. I would invite ANYONE who wants to row their dinghy to come on my next fishing trip...I seriously would. Though it will never happen.


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## hairymick (Oct 18, 2005)

*Occy Wrote*



> Oh and any of Hairymick's paddle craft (pirogues, canoes, whatever they may be) have always been OK (in fact better than OK, they are classics) as far as I'm concerned.


Heya occy, Thanks mate. I appreciate that - a lot 

*Baldy Wrote*



> Hmmm seems competition brings out some interesting points. Im not sure how you can class any human powered craft as eligible on a kayak fishing site. If outriggers are allowed then whats to stop someone rowing their clinker dinghy out and anchoring up, fish, then row back to shore. Sounds like they would be eligible for the comp but its not even close to kayak fishing


Mate, you make some pretty valid points re the row boat thing but some of your other comments sound a bit elitist to me.

Perhaps you would like to take a stab at what you think a true kayak is?

The purists would argue that the very popular (and very effective) plastic sit on tops are not a true kayak at all. Likewise, the brilliant South African range of skis.

Perhaps you would also like to exclude the range of hybrids that really are neither true kayak or canoe, but somewhere in between. These style of boats are becoming more and more popular in the United States and I am certain they will also make their mark here.

I really don't care either way. if I decide to enter into one of the comps here and if the mods/admin decide that only kayaks can enter then I can fish from just such a boat.



















Can you?

Or perhaps you would care to define this one?










Would you call this as a canoe or a true kayak?

The reality is, that is a true hybrid, in that it is probably neither. The purists who design this sort of boat, call them as a decked canoe. By your words, even something like this should be banned?

You need to remember mate, there are those here on a limited budget or, for other reasons really only have the option of a canoe, ski or who chose to fish from what-ever it is that they allready have, be it outrigger canoe, true kayak, surf ski or something else entirely.

As our sport and the boats we use evolve, the definition of "kayak" is becoming even more blurred. Be sure that I can build a boat that more closely resembles a kayak than anything currently available commercially in the sit on top range, but one that can be powered by oars. Sort of a sculling kayak. I have the plans for such a boat at the moment.

Would I call it a kayak and attempt to enter into a comp using it? Of course not but there you have it. The potential is there.

I think we need to be very careful with any sort of fishing comp. I thought that the concept of valuable prizes was to be avoided in AKFF simply because of the potential of arguments like this.

This forum was founded on a spirit of goodwill amongst a small group of kayak fishing enthusiasts. It would be a real shame if that original spirit were to be lost, simply because of a few prizes on offer.


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## crazyratwoman (Feb 26, 2007)

here here Mick


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

Ahh I see, so only people who agree can have an opinion? You call me an elitist and then say you can build a boat thats a "real" kayak and what Im paddling doesnt qualify. whos on the high horse here mate. You obviously know alot about kayaks, far more than me but my point was, in case you missed it, that saying any form of human propulsion is ok for entry into this comp might lead to trouble. And no I dont know the definition of a "true kayak" maybe you should enlighten me?

Seems to me you have taken everything I said and started splitting hairs...."I really don't care either way. if I decide to enter into one of the comps here and if the mods/admin decide that only kayaks can enter then I can fish from just such a boat."

"Can you"

Ummm well considering you have allready told me plastic sit on tops arnt actually kayaks then I guess you answered your own question, No.

I wont bother quoting the rest of it because you seem to have missed my point entirely, the point I was trying to make was that if given the opportunity there will be someone who takes the term human powered to the extreme[rowboat] And I just thought that was moving a long way away from what we loosely define a kayak.

Yes I know how the site started, small group of people who paddled/peddled to catch fish. Well those days are long gone mate and when you add a potential for profit it moves even further from where it started. Only way to get around it is have the forum invite only, now thats elitist! Im sure its far too simplistic but for what its worth I class those pics of yours as kayaks, if you can put both hands in the water at the same time it might be a kayak.[like I said I dont know the true definition but for me thats a good place to start]

Lastly, where did I say canoes/hybrids should be banned? Your putting words in my mouth now.

I know one thing, thats the last time I voice an opinion on this site, its not worth the trouble.


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## hairymick (Oct 18, 2005)

Baldy,

It seems that you have taken my remarks as a personal attack. They were never intended to be such. I apologise for that.

And no, I never accused you of being elitist. i said your comments sounded a bit that way. There is a difference.

I really don't care if the manufacturers choose to call their sit on tops kayaks or not. There have allways been a small group of sit inside and canoe fishermen here. and the last time i checked (about 2 years ago) we were welcome. Has that changed also?

I also never intended to sound like i was putting words into your mouth. Your specific reference to outriggers is what drew me to the conclusion that you were talking about canoes. There is at least one member here who fishes exclusively from an electric powered canadian canoe that is fitted with outriggers. He has been a wealth of information and very good ideas.

I don't think that I missed your point at all mate.

For what my opinion might be worth, I think that pretty much any paddle or peddle craft designed to be primarily propelled by peddles or paddles, be they single or double blade should qualify here. This, of course does not include a row boat that is propelled by oars.

The point I have been trying to make is that the whole concept of fishing in serious comps for serious prizes is abhorrent (sp) to me, and I believe, to the original spirit of AKFF.

Are we trying to turn this site into a small Ausfish?

apologies to any Ausfish mebers i might have offended here too.


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

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## hairymick (Oct 18, 2005)

Thanks Red,

I feel pretty much the same way, but it is not my call.

I don't normally engage in a sh!t fight on forums (particularly this one) but it gets my Irish up a bit when some-one says, or implies that perhaps this shoud be a kayak only fishing site, when just about any form of paddle craft has allways been welcome here.

Sure, those of us who don't paddle or fish from SOTS are in the minority. Our reasons for not using a SOT are as varied as are our boats.

I will try to be good from now on. :lol:


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## hairymick (Oct 18, 2005)

PM sent mate. 

For anybody else who might be interested,

Here is something to think about.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/batto/index.htm

or this

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/p ... /index.htm

or this

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/toto/index.htm

or this

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/nicho ... /index.htm

or this
8)

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/nicho ... /index.htm

The list is allmost endless.

Any of these fine boats could be built by the average home handyman with a few basic hand tools for a total cost of less than $600.00 using the very best of ply (Gaboon BS1088) and quality epoxy resin.


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

Hey Mick, you got mail...

Sorry to everyone else if I came across as being an ass, I would delete that first post if it didnt put the ones after it out of context, all I can do is give ya my word that I had what I thought were the best interests of the forum in mind[not my place to decide, I realise that now]. I should have been more clear, when I say kayak I didnt mean it in the true sense of the word,im just lazy and call them all kayaks, bit like some non paddlers call them all canoes I spose.

Cheers
Baldy


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## hairymick (Oct 18, 2005)

Heya Baldy,

Got it mate, no problem  All is clear now. :shock: 

Check ya mail. 8)

No apologies necessary. Healthy debate is a good thing. I should not have got a little personal there and I apologise for that mate. Will step outside and give myself 3 sharp uppercuts. :lol:


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

As mentioned earlier in this post I agree that offering prizes in these competitions certainly changes peoples motivations and gives them a different (perhaps the wrong) reasons to post on this site. Implementing the 50 post minimum on the fishing comp to win a kayak was our way of trying to avoid 10000 newbies coming across from Ausfish or Fishnet to rape and pillage our site. However the amount of new members HAS increased and yes, there have been lots of 'new' members suddenly posting like mad to try and get their post count up to 50 so that they can enter. Red and I actually had a bit of a laugh about this while we were at South West Rocks. However, I'll let you know that 95% of the entrants are long-term AKFF members who were here happily posting before this comp came along. The other 5% are, well, new members who hopefully have an interest in yak fishing so they're welcome too.

As far as prizes corrupting the values of the site, I have to disagree. Up until now the prizes we've offered have been welcomed by all members and hopefully put to good use. Its obvious that the main reason people still enter the comps is because they enjoy the competition, not to win a dodgy prize from the AKFF goody cabinet.

However I do agree that the Profish prize has certainly changed the actions of members. Obviously, some members motivation is not to win the kayak for their own personal use, but rather to put it up on the For Sale section of AKFF or ebay and make a profit. It's noticable how some members who had previously talked up one type/brand/model of kayak and who claimed they would never change have suddenly entered the comp to win a Viking Profish. However, that's fine as we want to make it as inclusive as possible and as random as possible to ensure that everyone who enters has an equal chance of winning, whatever their motivations may be.

With regard to 'what constitutes a kayak' for the purposes of this site I refer to my previous comment.


Davey G said:


> As for the original question...I'm all for being 'inclusive' but I'm still undecided on whether fishing from outrigger racing canoes, rowboats, single sculls, pedal swans or inflatable zodiacs are what we are all here to talk about..


I actually think that HairyMick has summed up nicely what sort of craft should be 'included' . I'd agree with this summation of what type of craft this site (AKFF) is meant to cater for..



hairymick said:


> For what my opinion might be worth, I think that pretty much any paddle or peddle craft designed to be primarily propelled by peddles or paddles, be they single or double blade should qualify here. This, of course does not include a row boat that is propelled by oars.


As for Red's ramblings about wheely bins pulled by trained dolphins, well all I can say is that the Qld heat must be getting to ya mate...you're starting to jibber. :lol:


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## hairymick (Oct 18, 2005)

Aaaah,

The thot plickens! Now I understand about the 50 post thing AND a kayak as a prize. I didn't even look


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## paulo (Nov 1, 2007)

occy said:


> Unfortunately he has a shoulder problem and can't use a paddle, but he can and does row a machine in the gym. He wanted to know if there was a sculling type kayak out there, but to be honest, until I saw your comments above, I thought he would be whistling Dixie.


Hi Paul
I was all signed up to buy one of these before I discovered a hobie. Not cheap though. Probably looking at around $4-6k for a single coastal boat. Coastal rowing in Europe is huge and only just starting to take off here. The boat is a cross between stillwater sculls and surf boats. They are very fast and stable. You would just have to get used to going backwards but think of how good a view you would have of surface strikes. The other problem would be steering under tow of a fish. They arent really designed to go forwards.








I was buying one to fish from and probably would have been the only one in Aus doing it.
Anyway, it may be an option for him. Lots more boats and pics here.
http://www.coastalrowing.com.au/site/in ... lay=101360


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## Astro (Nov 27, 2006)

Davey G said:


> However I do agree that the Profish prize has certainly changed the actions of members. Obviously, some members motivation is not to win the kayak for their own personal use, but rather to put it up on the For Sale section of AKFF or ebay and make a profit. It's noticable how some members who had previously talked up one type/brand/model of kayak and who claimed they would never change have suddenly entered the comp to win a Viking Profish.


and it was for this reason i have not entered the comp...i wish everyone luck and hope the winner gets many years of good solid use out of it


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