# All Stainless Steel is not the same...



## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

I used some 'Stainless steel' bolts and nuts that I got from the hardware to attach my anchor trolley to my Prowler Elite mounting points, but have discovered that only after a couple of months, the stainless steel bolts/nuts that I used have rusted. Furthermore when I tried to remove them, the philips head screw section has stripped, leaving me with rusty blobs of bolt sticking up from the yak.

(They have been screwed into the Prowler Elite pre-mounted threaded inserts)

Is there any thing I can get to help me remove these? I've tried 'lubing' it up with WD40 and Inox, but it doesnt make any difference and the bolts are still stuck fast.

Soooo, without taking a hacksaw to them (and stuffing the pre molded inserts), is there any way to get these out with minimal fuss?

And yes, I'll be checking that the next lot of SS bolts I get are "Marine Grade" stainless....


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## Tim (Nov 11, 2005)

a little googlage produced this:

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may2003/techtotech.htm


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

thanks tim, those instructions are fine if you're a mechanical engineer or welder, but I'm merely a boofhead with a bodgy bolt.

is there some sort of 'anti locking' spray etc that would be useful?


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## Tim (Nov 11, 2005)

Got a pic of the problem bit?

Is there any way you can get a grip on the bolt?


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## Tim (Nov 11, 2005)

This is the sort of tool you need i reackon, you'd drill a hole into the bolt and screw this bugger in, it's a reversed thread so as you screw it in, the broken bit should come out.

As to why it's stuck, could be salt, could be corrosion.


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## Sunhobie (Jun 22, 2006)

Ezi-outs have a nasty habit of snapping off in stainless steel. Might be a better way. Photo?


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## Guest (May 23, 2007)

Or you could contact your dealer and keep it off the forums :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry :roll: I know, very naughty


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## Tim (Nov 11, 2005)

:mrgreen:


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## Sunhobie (Jun 22, 2006)

No better still, give the bolt guy a rev! See if he burrs up :twisted:


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

Funda said:


> Or you could contact your dealer and keep it off the forums :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Sorry :roll: I know, very naughty


No mate it was my stuff up and I'm happy to admit it.   

Also - I loctited the bolts in when I attached them - and yes I can grab the head of the bolt with pliers (although they are a rounded shape and not easy to get purchase on). I'll give it another go tonight/tomorrow - I reckon they will come out 'somehow' but was just hoping there was an 'easy' solution - I'd heard of a spray/liquid that could be put on and made it easier to remove these, but I can't recell brand/product names.

Thanks for the replies so far. 8)


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## Tim (Nov 11, 2005)

you could try putting a soldering iron on the end and heatin it up a bit, then let it cool before you have another go at it, the contraction of the bolt as it cooled migh unstick it a bit.

Not sure what solvent would help if the loctite is the problem though...


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## HiRAEdd (Nov 12, 2005)

A chainsaw would remove them.

Sorry, not overly helpful


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

HiRAEdd said:


> A chainsaw would remove them.
> 
> Sorry, not overly helpful


AAAAAHHHH....a chainsaw!!! Now why didn't I think of that... :twisted: :?

Solderimng iron - I dont really want to put this in too close proximity to the plastic surrounding the thread insert as it will probably be ....BAD :roll:


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## Tim (Nov 11, 2005)

yeah there is that.

Chainsaw it is then :mrgreen:


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## Astro (Nov 27, 2006)

is there any way you can cut a slot to fit a flathead screwdriver? a pic would be helpful.

otherwise do the aussie bloke thing and HIT WITH A HAMMER!!!!! :twisted:

HTH


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## wolfy (Apr 27, 2007)

I'd probably spit the dummy and smash the entire kayak to bits with an axe.

Then I had a thought, if you could drill it out????

I get my SS from a nearby marine dealer, then after I get the shock of the price at least I know they are proper marine stainless.


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## Guest (May 23, 2007)

Actually hitting it with a hammer isnt as silly as it sounds :wink:

Try getting a punch and give the bolt a couple of good whacks with the hammer after soaking the area for a while with WD40, sometimes the jarring of the hammer will break whatever corrosion is in the threads.

Then get a decent pair of vice grips onto the bolts and it should come out.

If that fails then yeah get the chainsaw out


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## Clarkos (Oct 11, 2006)

Having completely stripped a rusted car, I think I know every trick there is. And most have been mentioned. Being mounted in plastic removes half the good options though. An oxy torch is usually one of the best. :wink:

Because you've used loctite, you may need to impact the bolt loose. Can you get to the back of the bolt? Use a hammer and dolley (or equivelant) and give it a bit of a whack. Don't know of any solvents. Ask hardware store maybe.

I'd then try the pliers again.

The eziout is the next best option. Drilling the hole will be tough though, so be careful you keep the drill straight. Wouldn't worry about the eziout snapping, you'll probably find that the insert will turn in the plastic (or the plastic gives) before it snaps.

Drilling it completely out is you last option. SS is tough to drill, but if you can guarantee you can keep the bit straight, then give it a shot. Go undersized first, then go up in stages. That way you won't drill out your thread.

Good luck, Steve.

PS Don't use loctite on the yak.

PSS Be mailing off the name tags tomorrow.


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

Dave my thoughts are all of the above.

Inox for a few days, it will take a while as it has to soak into the verdigris and every thing has to absorb the inox before its totally lubricated keep topping up with spray regularly and it will eventually penetrate.

Soldering iron on the head to really heat up your bolt and a tap with a hammer while hot

When you replace the bolts with new ones smear Never-Seize on the threads before tightening, and they will always be removable then later


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## Clarkos (Oct 11, 2006)

Just on the lubing bit.

The main reason you use WD 40 on rusted bolts etc is it will actually help to dissolve some of the rust. It's not for lubrication. That's just a secondary benifit.

It will therefore need time to penetrate. Usually overnight, before it becomes effective.

Also be careful spraying it around any sealant you might have on the yak. They don't like each other.


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## Clarkos (Oct 11, 2006)

Just checked the loctite website.

Depending on the colour. I assume it's red.

Blue: Can be removed with hand tools
Red: Apply heat to remove
Green: Apply heat to remove

Don't say how much heat, but it's only plastic apparently, so probably not much.


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## JimH (Apr 10, 2007)

Davey

You have a problem!

WD40, CRC, etc are lubricants usually in a volitile carrier fluid which will displace moisture ie good for wet elecrics etc. but not the best for stubborn jobs.

You need a penetrating oil which is a viscous fluid with the ability to get into the threads. Usually in Aus we use a product called Penetrene available from Repco, Autobarn, and I suspect Super Cheap or a specialist engineering tool shop. Another fluid worth trying is kero - you may have some at home.

The problem you have is not only the corrosion, but also the Locktite. This product (and i don't know which one you have used) may stop the penetrating oil doing its job (but then again it may have stopped the salty water getting to be bottom of the nut.) Usully with Loctite, the bond is broken by the application of heat - something I suggest you don't do.

You may need to give the penetrating oil some time to do its job.

Some other things worth considering:

There is a tool called an impact driver - not all that expensive, however the simple way may be to take the Yak to a motor bike shop - they will have one and my help you extract the offending screw.

After apply the penetrant, give the screw some gentle taps with a small hammer and P head scre driver straight down and a flat blade slightly sideways - the vibration will help to open up threads to let the oil in.

I dont think the soldering iron will do much for us - when using heat the idea is to heat (usually the nut) one object to make it expand, while the other bit remains "cool" once hot the pentrant is added and the corrosive joint broken.

If you still have the head intact try gripping it with vice grips.

Try to twist the screw both in and out to assist the penetrant in its job.

Now the next lesson

The OK elite has M5 inserts for most things (not sure about the motor mount fittings) with a 0.8mm thread pitch. I bought some screw last week from a specialist screw supplier ($27.10 for 18 off M5 x 30 Button socket head screws) material is 304 which is the most common stainless, so I will be keeping and eye on my boat. Marine grade stainless is 316 which is the second most common stainless steel.

Stainless steel will corrode, you would have seen it on knife blades, etc. This usually occurs when the surface has been contaminated by an impurity such as carbon steel (such as your screw driver) which starts the corrosion. The inserts may have had some impurities in them from the manufacturing period, who knows.

Why did you use Locktite? I noticed all facrory fitted screws were loose (I showed this to FishinDan last weekend) with the exception of the rudder bracket. I also noticed the screw and insert fit was not a pecision fit, however I would never use Locktite unless the screws were working loose. Have seen may corrogated seaways yet so vibrating loose should not be an issue.

Best of luck - but take your time (no need for chain saws etc just yet.)

JimH


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Davey , do you yhave a pair of VICEGRIP pliers , if you can lock the vicegrips on whats left of the head , it will come out


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## Biggera Yakker (Jan 25, 2007)

Remember to use some patience too!!!


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

thanks guys.

I went home last night, fired up the chainsaw and started cutting :shock: :shock: :shock: the bolts came out, but now I have another problem,,,,,the yak is taking on a bit of water :shock: :shock: :shock:. What can I do about that??? :? :? :? :wink:

seriously, I managed to get them out - a good lube with WD40, a few whacks to the head of the bolt, a lot of swearing, cutting a new screwdriver notch with a hacksaw and a bit of force with a pair of multigrips, and they came out. I reckon if I'd left them another few weeks though, the problem would have been much worse.

I've cleaned up the area and 'recycled' some of the other bolts off the Elite that were attached to other (unused ) saddles. So these bolts which I assume are of much higher grade stainless will hopefully last!

JimH- the reason I used the hardware shop bolts was that Whitworths only had the 5mm thread metric bolts in 30mm bolt length. The ones I needed were only 10-15mm long and the only place I could find them was the hardware - anyway I now have learnt my lesson and wil be visiting my local stainless steel shop if I need any more stuff. Surprisingly the other stainless stuff I bought at the hardware (saddles, carabiners etc) are all fine and have not rusted a bit...?

Re the loctite - I'm using the blue stuff (very weak) - screws/bolts are able to be removed with hand tools but it just gives enough 'grab' to ensure that nothing works loose.

THanks again for the advice/suggestions/ideas. The chainsaw one was a bewdy. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

I had a similar problem with my first Prowler. I dropped the stern and sheered off the bolts that held the rudder in place. I tried to drill them out, but the heat generated softened the surrounding plastic. Before I knew it, the insert was rotating in a nice soft plastic cavity. Almost ruined a brand new kayak. I ended up drilling completely through all four inserts, filling the surrounding open space with 2-part epoxy and installing through-bolts. After my repair job the rudder mount was far superior to the original; it just looked like hell.

I use marine grade SS bolts for everything. I spray the bolts with Boeshield T-9, a waxy lubricant and corrosion inhibitor, before I put the nut on. I've had to remove bolts after more than a year of heavy use and I have seen little or no corrosion. I'll occasionally check all the bolts to make sure that they haven't backed out.


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## fisherdan (Apr 17, 2007)

Did you keep the bolt so you can take it back to the hardware with a printout of this thread and a big thanks, I always like to show stores how much I enjoy their quality merchandise!

Dan


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