# Let's talk about safety and AKFF events



## L3GACY (Sep 2, 2007)

Legal requirements will vary from state to state and as a result you will probably end up setting standards that some people will believe extend beyond their idea of the minimum. Perhaps start with a "AKFF Suggests the following be taken on all offshore events" sort of thing. Something needs to be done but i think you need to be a little careful about how you do it.

Another idea would be to make sure all those attending offshore events meet the legal minimum safety requirements (and if things are a bit blurry in your state like they are in sa, the legal, minimum, relevant, boating requirements). Something i've found that is overlooked all too often is a basic first aid kit.

Look forward to seeing how this unfolds, i would like to see some form of standards set.


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## rob316 (Oct 2, 2007)

kraley , the right answer is kayaking is an individuals choice , we need to look after nobodys safety but our own personnal needs , even if it's a states law and someone doesn't abide by it - only that individual can be held accountable . This is a forum , and only a forum , nobody is held ransome to attend an event ,and if they do attend an event , it is up to them to act responsable and accountable . AKFF is a meet and greet place and a socialy active forum that shouldn't administer any safety rules , maybe recomendations , but certainly not rules . my 2 cents worth .


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## FoolInjected (Feb 4, 2008)

The way I see it is AKFF (as an entity) does not organized or facilitate get together
AFKK is merely a forum, or conduit, which people can utilise as they require, including an 'organising' a for trip them self and others. 
It is an individual organising the 'event' thus they liable for their own actions outside of the forum

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer so I don't know crap


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

That's a great question mate and is a topic I've been thinking about lately. I think that anyone participating in group meets like the SW rocks trip - especially if a particular org (is the AKFF officially an NPO?), participants should be encouraged to make sure they have the right gear or otherwise think seriously about not turning up. Here's a hypothetical to ponder...

Say a big trip is arranged by the mods of AKFF, or a fishing club perhaps, and someone turns up without a PFD. They head out far with the bung loose and the kayak slowly fills up with water 10km off shore and inadvertantly sinks. Providing the guy doesn't drown and is rescued, what would happen if he later sued the organisers for neglegence because he wasn't informed he needed a PFD?

I'm not trying to be a 'naboob of negativity' here (straight out of the Kraley dictionary that one  but there is potential for something like that to happen. And obviously, its the last thing anyone wants to happen. So yes, I think taking steps to cover everyone's backside is a wise thing to do.

There is also possibly the issue of liability insurance. I am unaware of the laws surrounding this and whether it is required for such a trip organised in that sort of fashion. I imagine that if there are issues to consider, there would be ways around it without having to take out said insurance. Forming an official club might be a possible way around it (this was suggested to me once), I'm not sure. Perhaps some form of indemnity form might be another way to skirt it. LI aint cheap. I have organised non-profit events in the past where we had 300 participants in one, 500 in another. I was able to get insurance for the duration of the event, and the cost of it was covered by entry fees. From memory, the insurance side of it worked out to about 4 - 5$ per person. then again, they were video game LAN events, not kayak fishing, so I'm sure insurance rates would be much different (what can go wrong sitting in front of a PC after all?)

I don't think a safety gear checklist needs to be terribly long but I do think it might pay to think about establishing one that participants are willing to abide by. I know that's what I'd do if I was running a kayak fishing event. Floatation, navigation, communication, lighting and 1st aid are the main things I'd consider.


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## FoolInjected (Feb 4, 2008)

Further to my previous post if AFKK advises formerly that this is a requirement to attend an outing they are actually leaving them self open to litigation
If something goes wrong on a trip and the recommendations do not cater for it there is bound to somebody somewhere who will say "It's your fault, pay me compo"

It's sad but this what a litigate happy society creates.


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## Tim (Nov 11, 2005)

Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can turn up to these publically advertised, free of any charge events, whether they register or not.

I can't see AKFF having any responsibility to an individual that shows up.

That's not to say that we shouldn't as a group make sure that any we're fishing with are safe, but policing it? No way.

If AFKK were a club with paid members, maybe, but a bunch of random yak fishos who happened upon a fishing forum via google? Nope.


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## Duran (Nov 19, 2005)

Kraley I agree with rob316 this is an individual sport and everyone is responsible for themselves and no one else I have see this same type of issue cause a lot of argument in other places and it always ends with people doing their own thing and leaves a lot of tension in the air I do see what u guy are worried about as no one wants to see another kayaker in need of help and then have to risk your own life for someone else's stupidity that could have easily be avoided by something as simple as a pdf , radio ect but to save causing fights at these events I think there should be a suggested guide line on what to do but not a set rule


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## wobbly (Jun 13, 2007)

Strongly disagree,

There is a strong case for; what if, if only, what could we have done in the event of an accident at sea. It appears from the thread responses that the emphasis is to protect the forum from any liability in the event that someone get injured drown etc.

Fella's I used to be a crew member on the Lifeboats, my father was the Royal National Lifeboat doctor and together we served for a while on missions but we spoke of the what if for years and let me tell you that sincerity and a high regard for safety values is paramount. For gods sake get real and set minimum guidelines and safety standards. At SWR everyone was keen to discover how to improve on fishing skills etc but safety was assumed. Clearly an unparallelled universe here.

Surely we are a motivated and positive group of intellegent and capable types who all have a moral and legal responsibility to ensure the safety of ouselves and others at sea. There is one standard to set and that is the highest standard and it is strongly recommended that the moderators get together and steer this topic to a satisfactory conclusion.

Regards

Brian


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

I can't help but think a few here might be missing the point. 
Try to think about it like this. Lets say someone at SWR was taken by a GWS (apparently they were around). The police and ambos arrive. They take a look around and questions are asked. Questions like: 
'Is this an event?' They would have a hard time believing 'no' for an answer. Someone would definitely say 'yes' and then elaborate that it was organised at the AKFF. The next questions would be 'who exactly organised this?' Followed by 'take me to your leader'. Many questions would follow. News reports would hit radio, TV, print, etc. In short, it would look bad. If someone (say, a widowed wife) wanted to sue for negligence, they'd probably have a case. There is little wonder Kraley has posed the question and I for one think it's pretty wise to do so. If events like this continue then yes, it's likely that one day something will probably go wrong (a kayak hit from a boat being most likely). And when things do go wrong, someone always looks for someone to blame. If you're not an organiser of such an event then sure, you would have little to worry about. But the organisers most definitely would be very concerned, and rightly so. Having been an event organiser myself I completely understand why Kraley has raised this.

It's one thing to say that the forum is pretty much open slather, no dotted lines to sign to participate in the forum posts. But to attend an event organised by the forum administrators as such, is a different thing altogether. You might not see it that way, but others would. And therein lies the problem.


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## Bartek (Dec 12, 2007)

Sounds to me like we have quite a few "barrack room lawyers" (no offence intended)  I think the best thing to do is get some proper legal advice on where the moderators/organisers stand legally. Do we have any practicing lawyers in the forum that specialise in public liability, if not it may be worth contacting the webhosting company to see if they have someone who can answer the question. Until we get some proper advice it is all speculation.

But I would support minimum standards of safety equipment for organised events, which I think should be slightly above the state minimum to show we take safety seriously (just my opinion!)


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

I agree with a few of the others, Rules...nope but a list of reccomended gear thats advertised on the thread, you know slightly larger text in a different color. Even coming up with that list of gear could lead to arguments, so it would need to be fairly basic I think. Maybe just a list of the gear thats legaly required for that trip, not that we can police the rules but it wouldnt hurt to advertise them.

Its a tough subject, everyones idea of what is considered "safe" will be different, its a very slippery slope...start with pfd requirments[pfd1..2..3?] and it wont take much to get to the kayaks themselves, not big enough...to big..peddles..no peddles..ect ect

For your everyday inshore trips I dont think a list of gear is really nessasary but for the bigger trips like the SW rocks one, where you have people coming from far and wide , a list of whats required by law would help educate people.

Anyway, just my 2bobs worth, take it with a grain of salt 

Cheers
Baldy


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## Duran (Nov 19, 2005)

as arpie said maybe there can be a form is sign or something that says atend at own risk in the post but i think this is going a bit off the piont of people carry safty equipment to protect them selves not to protect the forum
because dont think any safty equipment is going to help if a great white wants to eat you


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Good point Duran - perhaps the GWS example was a bad one. :?
Then again, most GWS attacks on kayakers have not resulted in death. But some have resulted in a mangled kayak (refer image below). If it happened 10km out and the yak sank afterwards and the user had no PFD, we're back to my initial example.


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## Duran (Nov 19, 2005)

5th I did not mean anything by the great white thing just that there are a lot of thing that are out of anyone's control and to many things can go wrong out there that safety equipment can't help and as I don't no the law around here I can't say whets best for the forum.
when I go out I always have my pdf and phone just in case but I don't think we should start forcing people to take stuff they don't want out with them as it will cause trouble


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

> but I don't think we should start forcing people to take stuff they don't want out with them as it will cause trouble


No offense taken m8  And I hear what you are saying and when you're out on your own, or with a few mates, I agree totally. It's all up to yourself. But when it's an organised event where someone might get blamed in case something went wrong, I think it's fair and reasonable for the organisers to take steps to cover themselves just in case the unthinkable did happen. That's all I'm saying.


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## Astro (Nov 27, 2006)

surely theres a yak fishing lawyer here.........somewhere...........


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## Slide (Oct 25, 2007)

It seems to me most organisations these days make safety rules for everything. Right now I am sitting too close to my computer screen and my desk doesn't conform to my employers standards. I know this because if I ever wanted to work from home I had to conduct a safety audit on my house. This is how they make it your responsibility and not theirs. For example, AKFF produces a set of safety rules for organised trips. PFD's, epirbs and so on. When and if something happens, the rules are produced and it becomes clear that the person involved has not followed the rules. This is all well and good, may save the organisers from being sued. But the more important issue is do you want people to be safe? or do you want to make sure AKFF can't be sued? The answer has to be both. To me this means a set of minimum standards and enforcing those standards (not popular I know, I'm getting used to it). If someone doesn't approve of the standards they should not be allowed to participate in an organised trip. From the sounds of the last organised trip, people would happily buy a few saftey devices in order to participate. The next thing to do would be to have a number of epirbs (or other things) owned by AKFF. These are shifted from one organised trip to the next. No idea how to pay for these, the fundraising types would get this done no worries.


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## rob316 (Oct 2, 2007)

I think it would be the individual who is respnsable because it is their decision to attend , enter , fish , kayak or whatever...as an amatuer event , the prizes / gifts must not exceed a certain limit , because it is not a club , there are no rules or guidlines to adhere by...because it is not recognised in the official term by authorities then there is no need to make anyone a scapegoat....the organisors are responsable for nothing unless the trip is sanctioned or registered .

Having said that , any rules are an admittance of responsability by the organisors , therefore they would be foolhardy to implement them if they are not willing to take the bullet if anything goes wrong . Technically you are not even allowed to sell drinks , food or anything at these events unless you are a registered organisation / club .

You have stirred a hornets nest with this post and i think common sense and maturity should be the only pre-requisite for such events , otherwise you are opening the door for lawsuits from anyone with a cramp in their finger from paddling to much .

ps...i am all for safety and teaching proper survival techniques , promoting the joy of kayak fishing and responsable behaviour on the water...I HATE RED TAPE AND POLITICAL CORRECTNESS !!!!


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## AJD (Jul 10, 2007)

Hi guys - I've fished with a few different clubs over the years and at all events/comps/get togethers they simply designated a safety officer for the day/event. It was that persons responsibility to inspect the saftey gear on the boats taking part (of any type). The default was always the minimum requirements of the state we were in at the time. If you didn't measure up to the minimum requirements you were excluded PERIOD.
This was not done just for the safety of the individuals on the offending craft but also for anybody who may be dragged in to help them if an issue arose. It also allowed the organisers to pass a 'red face' test if something did go wrong and it hit the media. It's got nothing to do with legalities because if someone wants to sue they will.
There are plenty of sports where this is the case - most forms of motor racing etc have scrutineering before competition, divers check each others gear before a dive etc. It's just common sense. AJD


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## Peril (Sep 5, 2005)

It matters not one jot what you think is right. The law is an ass and some cashed up person with a grievance can make life a complete misery for well intentioned people. Waivers, indemnities etc may have some weight, but don't count on it.

However, as soon as you start making rules you start taking responsibility. Sounds silly, but if you say that PFDs must be worn, and a member turns up with PFDx, gets injured and an SC convinces a court that the rule should have been PFDy you will be held liable.

The only way that I can see to handle this is to have a clearly identifed link to the host state's legal requirements in any AKFF event notice. It is then up to individuals to read and interpret, and everyone else to tell them when they're being a stubborn goose


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## onemorecast (Apr 17, 2006)

We're not a gang...we're a club... err...we're not club, we're a forum.

I think you (the moderators) should get some paid legal advice to ensure you / the forum are not exposed to any liability. If we all chipped in 5 or 10 bucks that might be enough to cover a consultation. (Or maybe offer the sharks some free advertising here in exchange)


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

The forum is growing and the larger it gets the more real these kinds of issues are I suppose, and as much as we'd like to we can't ignore the issue.

It presents a bigger issue in my mind however, if we are going to consider regulating members activities, then there are two logical courses of action I can see :

a) If regulation is a reaility, then there needs to be a more organised and official strucutre to the 'organisation' ie: People who are chosen to represent the 'organisation' and implement (impose?) these kinds of regulations, to which one must abide if they choose to be a member. This is the only way we can effectively hold 'official' AKFF meets which are advertised as such. This option involves a hell of a lot of work, and needs people to step up to the plate and take additional responsibilities.

b) No regulation by elected officials, meaning events can be arranged between members, but not under the AKFF banner, and not promoted as 'official events'. This will obviously mean the site cant be held liable if things go bad. This is the simplest solution to implement, and the system which best describes how things have been to date.

The reality is that both options are going to have opposition.

I would accept whichever option the majority chooses, but from a personal perspective I'm not interested in being part of a 'beaurocratic club' which regulates the activities of its members, thats not why I'm here. I'd probably browse the forum rather than participate if thats the way things went.


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## saysme (Apr 29, 2007)

So is there a difference between me posting a trip to Lake Macquarie and having 3 keen AKFF members turn up And the SWR trip having 30 Members turn up. I can't find the original SWR thread but I don't think it was posted by one of the mods.

Again I'm not a legal eagle but I would think having 'suggested' safety equipment leaves you less open for litigation then Mandatory safety equipment and not enforcing it; And who it going to stop the individual from going out anyway? Does the cricket umpire or coach check that the batsman is wearing his hecter protector (maybe they do)?

Clearly there is a need for some professional advice here- But I can see it heading to a club status with membership fees, AGM's, committees, etc especially if we start making safety rules of our own. I think boating safety is the realm of the relevant water authorities and thats where it should stay. They CAN enforce them by prosecution or confiscation.

Keep it simple


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## Breambo (Apr 19, 2006)

Im with Peril, your inviting trouble by accepting responsibility. Ive got Marine parks, fisheries, do gooders breathing down my neck as it is. I dont want a forum telling me what I should and shouldnt be doing. I dont have any safety gear, except for my pfd, which I find cumbersome and restrictive( which could be dangerous in its self) but I am confident to swim all day( and night for that matter) in open ocean if needed. :shock: :shock: :shock:
I like to take risks and do dangerous things, if it was 100% safe I wouldnt like it. Just my 2 bob rant.....


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

> I dont want a forum telling me what I should and shouldnt be doing.


I don't think the forum has any responsibility (legally or morally) to try to educate members on safety. Perhaps a wiki section could be created, but beyond that I really don't see a need. Nor do I expect many would pay strict attention if there was. And if they didn't, I wouldn't blame them. Some people would disagree on what qualifies as a required safety item anyway. For instance, I know peril once mentioned that a whistle is a pretty important piece of kit and this surprised me because in my own experience (hundreds of trips) I've never needed one and can't see a situation where I would. And others would disagree with me on some of my preferences as well. That's just natural.

From my perspective - and I thought this is where Kraley was coming from in the original post - it is the large gatherings (organised by administrators) that could loosely or accurately be interpreted as an arranged event (such as a kayak/camping trip or tournament, for example) that I think some kind of safety requirements be laid down by those responsible for organising it. The minimum legal requirements is probably all that's needed I think. And it's not just to try and prevent litigation either - as has already been mentioned, it might just help to minimise the potential for something to just ruin some ones (or every ones) day.

Anyway Breambo, no matter how much safety kit you clutter on your kayak, offshore kayak fishing is never going to be 100% safe. There's always some element of risk involved, so i don't think there's any fear of you getting turned off, even if in participating in a tourney or event you were required to carry a whistle as well  If you ever start to feel too safe, just keep throwing berley over the side and soon enough the safety factor will decrease :shock:


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

> The only way that I can see to handle this is to have a clearly identifed link to the host state's legal requirements in any AKFF event notice. It is then up to individuals to read and interpret,





> No regulation by elected officials, meaning events can be arranged between members, but not under the AKFF banner, and not promoted as 'official events'. This will obviously mean the site cant be held liable if things go bad. This is the simplest solution to implement, and the system which best describes how things have been to date.
> ............ from a personal perspective I'm not interested in being part of a 'beaurocratic club' which regulates the activities of its members, thats not why I'm here. I'd probably browse the forum rather than participate if thats the way things went.


The views of Dave and Dallas closely mimic my views on the topic.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

5thofNovember said:


> > I think some kind of safety requirements be laid down by those responsible for organising it. The minimum legal requirements is probably all that's needed I think. And it's not just to try and prevent litigation either - as has already been mentioned, it might just help to minimise the potential for something to just ruin some ones (or every ones) day.


You mention laying out safety guidelines to prevent litigation, what worries me is that by the forum itself laying down guidelines we are implying some degree of responsibility lies with the form.

If members wish to organise large gatherings, then rather than the forum laying down the guidelines, let the members concerned be the ones responsible for laying down the law, and also let them bear the responsibility if something goes wrong.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

> You mention laying out safety guidelines to prevent litigation, what worries me is that by the forum itself laying down guidelines we are implying some degree of responsibility lies with the form.


Again, I think you're missing my point. I think you are confusing what others have suggested with what I am suggesting. I'm not talking about the forum laying down guidelines - in fact, I just said that I don't think that is necessary whatsoever. I'm talking about the forum administrators simply setting requirements to participate in events that they themselves are responsible for organising. If I was to arrange some form of official event, I'd be doing it for sure, for all the reasons I mentioned. As for what other members do if they organise their own trips or events, well yes, that should always be entirely up to them.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Lazybugger said:


> As mentioned in my earlier post, we need to make sure with legal advice that we can even take that view (do nothing and leave it to members). If we do nothing but should have done something then we are still up shit creek.


So who is going to pay for said legal fees in the absence of any kind of club structure or funding?......goes back to my earlier post re: choice a) or b)



> a) If regulation is a reaility, then there needs to be a more organised and official strucutre to the 'organisation' ie: People who are chosen to represent the 'organisation' and implement (impose?) these kinds of regulations, to which one must abide if they choose to be a member. This is the only way we can effectively hold 'official' AKFF meets which are advertised as such. This option involves a hell of a lot of work, and needs people to step up to the plate and take additional responsibilities.
> 
> b) No regulation by elected officials, meaning events can be arranged between members, but not under the AKFF banner, and not promoted as 'official events'. This will obviously mean the site cant be held liable if things go bad. This is the simplest solution to implement, and the system which best describes how things have been to date.
> 
> ...


If there is no actual club, and no published club guidelines regarding event requirements, and no 'official AKFF event' I cant see there is any recourse against the forum, the only recourse would be against the individual who organised the event via the civil courts.


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## simond11 (Aug 29, 2005)

I would guess that when Gamefishing Clubs around the country organise a tournament, they are not concerned whether boat X has enough lifejackets or boat Y has enough flares. Due to the Maritime Board Regulations, that is a given. The tournament organisers would probably remind the participants of their safety responsibilites. They are there to organise the event and make sure that any fish brought in meets the IGFA requirements together with all the paperwork that goes with it.
I think we are all adult enough to understand what we require to ensure our safety whilst out at sea. AKFF is merely the organising group, not the police or the MSB. If someone is pulled up by the Water Police for not having a PFD, then it's their fault. All that AKFF can do is outline the minimum that is required by the local state laws. If next year we have a tournament in QLD or WA, then AKFF should give a gentle reminder to all participants as to what is required as safety items for that particular state. It's up to people to decide whether they want to folow that advice, and if they don't that's their choice.If they get caught and fined then that's also their choice. 
I don't think we can be considered a club, as we don't pay fees. Also I guess we don't have a fixed meeting place, so it's hard to really define us. 
I still think people should be responsible for their own actions. 
Did anyone get sued over the death of Andrew McAuley?
Cheers

Simon
Prowler 15


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

> If there is no actual club, and no published club guidelines regarding event requirements, and no 'official AKFF event' I cant see there is any recourse against the forum, the only recourse would be against the individual who organised the event via the civil courts.


Dallas, you're absolutely right. No recourse to the forum at all. I don't see how there could be under any circumstances (I'm no lawyer, so don't take that to the bank). But there would be for whoever was responsible for organising the event. Forget about the forum for a minute and think of it in terms of events. With 30+ participants, the chances of mishap increase dramatically. And that is precisely why whoever organises the event should definitely be thinking about taking at least some steps to ensure that safety is an issue that is addressed in some way, for all the reasons I mentioned earlier.



> I don't think we can be considered a club, as we don't pay fees. Also I guess we don't have a fixed meeting place, so it's hard to really define us.
> I still think people should be responsible for their own actions.
> Did anyone get sued over the death of Andrew McAuley?


Interesting points there Simon. The Internet as a medium does have the legal system guessing a lot recently - I read a case the other day where a judge conceded that the web is changing the way laws can and should work, simply because it moves faster than the legal system does. It could possibly, however, be argued by a clever law-talking kind of guy that this forum is a fixed meeting place. I do agree that people should be responsible for their own actions, but sadly the law doesn't always see it that way. As for McAuley, well, I believe he organised his own trip. There was no official body presiding this endeavour. The only person who could be sued was himself I think.

This is an intriguing topic. As has been mentioned earlier, it's probably a good idea for the admins to consult a legal advisor with respect to future events. Especially if they do in fact become more official, which is entirely possible. When and if those images of Paulo's magnificent capture start circulating, i won't be at all surprised if potential sponsors come knocking. And if the admins were to go forth and seek sponsorship, with examples like that I don't think they'll have any trouble getting it.


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## simond11 (Aug 29, 2005)

I found this on one of the US kayak sites. They are organising an annual kayak fishing event. I will put the link for the Tournament Rules

http://gulfcoastkayakfishing.com/Tourna ... 0rules.pdf

and the link for the Tornament Entry Form

http://gulfcoastkayakfishing.com/Tourna ... ryForm.pdf

Cheers

Simon
Prowler 15


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## Breambo (Apr 19, 2006)

5thofNovember said:


> > If you ever start to feel too safe, just keep throwing berley over the side and soon enough the safety factor will decrease :shock:


Where I fish I dont have to, sharks, lots of them are already there.
Dont get me wrong I take safety seriously, I know my limits. If Im only 2-3kms out I take risks because I can swim back to the beach. When I go further out I team up with someone. If Im on my own I take extra precautions.
Kayak fishing and especially kayak light game/game fishing is inherintly very dangerous.
Because of its solo nature whilst participating in KF, if something bad happened,even at a AKFF get together it would be very hard to prove that the forum was in any way negligent, wouldnt it ?


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

> Because of its solo nature whilst participating in KF, if something bad happened,even at a AKFF get together it would be very hard to prove that the forum was in any way negligent, wouldnt it ?


Indeed. It would be impossible I would think. But I'm not talking about the forum being responsible. I'm only talking about whoever organised the event. In this instance, I'm specifically talking about the possibility of future events like the SWR trip organised by the AKFF admins. One thing I'm not being specific about is the extent that measures should be taken, because that's something I really aren't at all sure about. In the events I managed several years ago I sought legal advice. That advice probably wouldn't apply to this because the nature of the event is completely different. As I said earlier, that advice influenced me to take out liability insurance. I also set up a company (albeit with non-profit intentions) that was used as the legal entity that presided over the events, because doing so gets the individual out of all sorts of potential pitfalls. In the event of something going wrong, the company takes the fall and if there's little or no money in it, there's little or nothing to lose. At least, thats how I recall my lawyer explaining it to me at the time.


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## Nodds (Feb 28, 2007)

I just want to know were this all ends? If I put up a post saying I'm going fishing tomorrow and would anyone like to join me am I responsible for them because I am the organizer of the "event"?

To add to this do I come under your (AKFF's) responsibility when I'm fishing for a fish to enter into "your" monthly comp? Meaning if I hurt myself whilst perusing game to enter in the comp is AKFF responsible? hence liable?

I feel that each persons safety is his or hers own responsibility and AKFF should stop at a safety section with guidelines or suggestions and nothing more.
As this is a forum is not a club or group or really an organization I fail to see how any more liability can fall on the forum for a trip like SWR than can befall it for a trip I or any other member was to organize this weekend. :?

I would like to see safety promoted on this and all kayak forums, however like quite a lot of the other members I don't want to be forced into a situation were I have to sign anything, pay memberships and annual fees or worse be made feel like some sort of lepper at an "gathering" like SWR because I forgot some bit of gear or I choose not to use something that the majority may want on there "must have list"

I personally like the "mates catching up" feel this forum seems to have. I don't want to see that turned into some dictatorship were being an individual and responsible for my own actions puts me in a "dose not qualify" bracket as suggested earlier.

I think if you (AKFF) starts making the rules then you start taking on the responsibility and thats not a good place to be.

just my thoughts but it's late and I'm tired so what do I know.

cheers nodds


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

Wow kraley, tough question that one :shock: . As a comittee member of a dive club a few years back we asked the same difficult question. Never really did resolve it :? ...lol :lol: . Don't know about legalities, but this forum is not a club but a way for like minded folk to learn off each other, and communicate discoveries 8) . In keeping with this I would suggest a new member "pack" is pm'ed to each new member with links to safety info and locked threads with a few recommendations for minimum equipment requirements. I think this would be good for any new yakkers and would make a great resource even greater  . Then before and at an "event" people can be informed that if they don't meet the requirements they should exclude themselves from participating. It is not up to us to police this. How do you stop someone from just going along anyhow? I would feel that at this point this forum has discharged it's duty towards preventing mishap and on with the show. I'm sure all the folk on AKFF care about what happens to new members to some degree and it would be nice to show that in some way and I think that a friendly pm and self education with help and info provided is a good way to do this 8) . I think that a list of must haves should be varied to some degree as a trip to West Lakes is not the same as a paddle out to a spot 6 or 7 km offshore and I would feel that flares and/or an epirb would be overkill since in most places I've seen there are ladders spaced every 25-30 metres or so and it is not a big ask to swim to the sides especially with a pfd on :shock: . I've also heard that a waiver is a pretty well useless document in this country but experts should probably be consulted regarding this rather than the unsubstantiated mutterings of the ubiquitous "they" :? . The moderators on this site do an outstanding job I think and I would hate to see some hurting relative target one or all for law suit for something they really had no control over. These are just my two cents and I hope they help in some way or other.
Cheers
Mike


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## andybear (Jan 15, 2006)

Hi all,

Just thought it might be worthwhile, at the very start of the AKFF adventure, when registering as a user for the forum. Perhaps some sort of banner which states that kayak fishing is not without some risk, and that if any forum member wants to be a wally at sea, then its his own problem......click the box ....accept the terms....etc.....

Any stuff that we do with ink and paper drags us deeper into the potential mire, rather than excludes us from it.

Anyone who sets out, and is not wearing a PFD, is obviously not a forum member ......aint never heard of that person....denial, denial, denial.

cheers all Andybear


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## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

I hate lawyers. Without ambulance chasing personal injury lawyers, we would never be having this discussion. There has been an enormous increase in the number of personal injury lawsuits over the last few decades, yet, after all is said and done and all of the money has been redistributed, are we any safer. I would say that we aren't. We just have more warning labels and liability releases to sign, but life hasn't become safer. The only thing that happens is a court ordered redistribution of wealth. If it weren't for the frivolous lawsuits we wouldn't have to argue over this. We could just talk about how much fun it is to paddle a kayak around and do a little fishing. Bloody lawyers.

I'm done. I'll get off the soapbox now.

It's all a moot point for me. I don't go out without the required safety gear - and then some. I would just hate to see the AKFF or any of it's mods/administrators hauled before a court by some damn greedy bastard that just wants to blame somebody else for their problems.


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## simond11 (Aug 29, 2005)

Hear hear, Doug. 
I think all we can do as a collective group of forum members is to remind each other of the importance of safety equipment when out paddling. We don't have the jurisdiction of pointing a gun to one's head and forcing each other to comply (now THAT would open up a whole new legal quagmire!). It's a very complicated issue, because so much is left up to the individual. And really, that's how it should be. I am responsible for my own safety and no one else. If I decide to be unsafe, then that' my choice. As said in a previous post, I think we have all been doing this for a while, and we know (or SHOULD know) what the personal and legal requirements are regarding safety equipment. I have yet to go out with any AKKFers and not seen them with safety gear that goes beyond the minimum.
Interested to hear what the legal eagles have to say. 
Cheers

Simon
Prowler 15


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## justcrusin (Oct 1, 2006)

I am with Perils advice on this one, I can tell you from fish a couple of the entry fee fishing comps that no saftey inspections are done. They are threatened so everyone does the right thing.
The breifing at the start consists of, OK most you have been here before, pfd's on the plane, no fishing signs must be observed and then a couple of housekeeping things. 
I think posting a link to the events state maritime rules then puts the responsability on the indiviual to follow the laws of the state.

Me personally i carry everything listed in the replies above but i'm a wuss :lol:

The is a law in NSW about volunteers not being able to be sued aslong as they acted with good will towards others, I knew this law from volunteer rescue but i believe it was a broad coverage to stop the litagation of volunteers in the state. If anyone has a clearer definition of the law as i have only been told it second hand.

Cheers Dave


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## bushwoodboy (Oct 5, 2006)

Now I'm no big city lawyer  
But I would sure be getting the advice of one before I did anything.
If there is one thing that has become clear
Charlie don't surf & Lawyers don't kayak fish!
Wheres all the kayak fishing lawyers?
Cheers Mal.


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## Dave73 (Dec 3, 2006)

Can't make people pack common sense...and if they did it would get stowed somewhere they can't get to it. :? (edit, that is a bit harsh)

Cover yourself with a blanket waiver if your advice says so. I'd not outline a recommended list of safety gear. Having a radio and calling for assistance 1 hour after the storm has hit isn't grounds to get your rich daddy to toss Gatesy to the lions! 
We are out there on the big blue wobbly, and when that current runs hard or the wind picks up, or JT pops his nut, or a newbie gets crunched by the rock monster or I have a heart attack cause I saw a 13ft shark....well thats kayak fishing ladies.

Great thread! By the way, I started kayak fishing after a rock fishing accident, I'm still trying to sue King Neptune :shock: :shock:

Cheers Dave


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## Peril (Sep 5, 2005)

BTW, did anyone who fished more than 2 nautical miles from shore at SWR have a 27MHz or VHF marine radio? Or a V-sheet? NSW law requires that you do though I've no idea how to use a V-sheet on a kayak


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

This topic has been raised before, however its great to have the discussion again.

As event organiser of a couple of these "official AKFF' events I have a little bit of insight and as such, my outlook has changed over the last year.

The first big event we arranged (Barlings Beach Feb 2007) was heavily organised and we sent every attending member (pre event) a 3 page 'itinerary' of the weekend. Basically this covered everything from stating the fact that this was not an 'organised trip' but a collection of individuals and that AKFF was in no way responsible for the actions of any individual member. The itinerary also included trip plans, with times and locations of each planned outing (offshore/river etc).

In hindsight and after chatting to a few members we realised that this kind of organisation did leave us open to future problems simply due to the fact that we'd told people where to fish - and if they then got into any trouble it could come back and bite us on the arse (which thankfully it didnt).

The subsequent events that mods (myself/Red/Kraley) have been involved in (Forster,Budgewoi and SWR) we have purposely not given any trip plans/overviews or schedules. Although these trips are group trips, we are merely 30 individuals all decideing at our own risk to all fish at the same place at the same time and as such everyone takes responsibility individually.

However I understand and agree that we should try to do everything possible to ensure all attendees have the basic safety equipment and understand that the trips are made at the individuals own risk. For the SWR trip this WAS outlined both within the thread, and in detail on the event's wiki page, but obvioulsy many people chose either not to look, not to bother or both... We can't control the actions of individuals and have no intention of trying to do so. All that creates is more work, and as this is a volunteer-driven forum, we simply don't have the resources or time to do this.

In saying that however, our main intention for these trips is for everyone to have a great time, and yes that involves going out and coming back safely, so anything we can do to keep our 100% track record intact will be taken on board..


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## fisher (Aug 30, 2005)

arpie said:


> it wouldn't hurt if the mods/admin came up with a basic 'Waiver of Injury/Death' form that all attendees must fill in


It is important to recognise that a 'waiver' means zip if someone is found to be negligent - I think the best AKFF can do is to encourage members to abide by their own State / Territory regulations.


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## MangoX (Feb 18, 2006)

:shock: wow...its getting al serious in here....

I understand the forum is growing and things will change. 
I kinda like the informal and friendly nature of the forum so far...nothing structured, forms, fees, waivers etc...

I guess we may reach the state of the US forums where they will have big tournaments with prizes and these
forms and fees will be necessary. So far its been more like ¨who caught the biggest fish ? Well done...here's a beer " 

Like Dave, I'm a wuss  and take all the gear. I didn't see anyone at SWR without PFD... but if I had, I just would've said
"you're mad" and kept fishing. I thought more people would've had UHFs.... but everyone stayed pretty much together.

I think legal advice will recommend some sort of disclaimer (like the ones already posted) when organising an official gathering.
And that's it.

Leave as is, I say


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## Sunhobie (Jun 22, 2006)

A waiver is not worth the paper it is written on. A dead person cannot sign away his family's right to seek compensation for loss and hardship caused as a result of the persons death.
I think you will find that any person *in authority*, with knowledge, who does not attempt to save a person (from themselves) by way of offering advice, could be found negligent in a case of a serious accident.

Eg. Fishing trip organiser doesn't advise Joe Bloggs to avoid wading in croc infested creek. JB gets eaten. Whether he was being paid or not, the organiser could be found guilty in a court of law for being negligent and be forced to pay damages (for which hopefully he has insurance cover).
Overseas, voluntary yacht racing officials have in the past, been jailed for conducting races in unsafe conditions. They were found criminally negligent because they didn't pull the pin on a race where someone was subsequently killed or injured. 
The whole conundrum is very concerning. Negligence is one thing, simple accidents are another. Both can be grounds to sue.

I think the answer is to organise gatherings of fisherfolk who choose to go fishing under their own steam. As soon as you make it a competition or a formal event, the person with their name on the invitation, leaves themself open to the unlikely event of legal action.

This is precicely why many clubs have folded up because they either can't find members willing to take the risk or their club cannot afford the insurance to cover the club from liability.

This is not a constituted club with elected committee and liability insurance.

Another way to go is to use the forum to advertise a gathering being formally organised by an existing properly constituted club which does have all the "i's dotted.

I'm no layer but have had to face this question many times in my association with clubs


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## rob316 (Oct 2, 2007)

ok , now everyone has had a bash , i'm getting back to what i know....kayak fishing , with no pfd , marine radio , v-sheet or whistle [its my decision , qld rules say so ]...but i will have a mobile phone and hat and a bloody bright kayak....sitting 2kms out in bay waters....and if i get a sore bloody arm from paddling , i'll make sure to blame myself , and no-one else !!!!
ps...apparently esky lids are the new pfd's , they finally found that guy from the trawler off the coast alive clinging to an esky lid...good stuff !!


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