# PFD confusion



## CatfishKeith (Apr 17, 2009)

I am a little confused about the type of PFD Kayakers are required to wear on open water in NSW. From what I can see it seems to be a type 1, which seem to be problematic on kayaks. From what some people are telling me, its ok to wear a type 2 whilst kayaking on open water but from what I can see and according to http://maritime.nsw.gov.au/campaigns/lifejacket.html the only difference between a type 2 and a type 3 is colour :? 
So can you wear a type 2 on open water? and if so can you wear a type3 in the same colour as a type 2 (yum yum yellow)?


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## Eldnar (Feb 3, 2009)

Hey Catfish Keith,

I'd be checking with one of the better kayak shops that specialise in sea kayaking or maybe even a tour opperator as they should or would have to know for legal reasons.


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## CatfishKeith (Apr 17, 2009)

Yep I did but now that I check the PFD they recommended was a type 3 :?


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## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

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## CatfishKeith (Apr 17, 2009)

Redphenix

Yes I have read the forum link and the gov site as well. The confusion is to go off shore you need to be wearing a type 1 or type 2.. that seems clear until I read another page on the gov site that says the only difference between a type 2 and type 3 is the colours, which begs the question and with all things being equal is a type 3 in the appropriate colour (yellow) compliant for off shore kayaking?


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## Feral (Oct 18, 2008)

If a type 3 was yellow, it would be a type 2. (As long as it was the approved yellow). Type 3's are really just for trendoids who wont wear yellow or orange, or want to be colour co-ordinated with their jetski.....
wear an inflateable.

In Qld there is no requirement for PFD's on yaks, I must find the rules for Australian waters one day (Ie those waters outside of the 3 mile state limits) just in case they require a jacket!

Dang just looked them up, PFD 1 required! I wonder who enforces the national standards?

http://www.nmsc.gov.au/documents/nat_rec_saf_equip_000.pdf


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## SnakeMan (Mar 8, 2009)

I just bought a class 2 pfd its black and green and hopefully floats real well got plenty of work shirts if i'm concerned about being visable


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## CatfishKeith (Apr 17, 2009)

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/viewt ... +FIRST+0+N

Part 5 / Division 4 / Clause 85
1.d says

(1) Each person on board a canoe or kayak must wear an appropriate lifejacket when the vessel is being operated unless the vessel:
(a) is not more than 400 metres from the shore, and
(b) is propelled by paddle or oars in any enclosed waters between sunrise and sunset, and
(c) is not a tender, and
*(d) is constructed so as to stay afloat if capsized.*

I gather it means it's ok to wear an inappropriate PFD if you own a sit-on-top Yak :?

Part 5 / Division 4 / Clause 83

2) In this Regulation, a reference to an appropriate lifejacket is a reference to:
*(a) in the case of a personal watercraft, kayak, canoe or windsurfer operating on open waters, a lifejacket Type 1 or a lifejacket Type 2, and*
(b) in the case of a vessel (other than a personal watercraft, kayak, canoe or windsurfer) operating on open waters, a lifejacket Type 1, and
*(c) in the case of a vessel operating on enclosed waters, a lifejacket Type 1, a lifejacket Type 2 or a lifejacket Type 3.*

so correct me if I'm reading this incorrectly

As long as I using a Yak that is designed not to sink if capsized, like my Hobie Revo, I can use a type 3 PFD such as the Stohlquist Fisherman PFD when off-shore?


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## Kalgrm (Nov 15, 2008)

CatfishKeith,

1.d has lots of joining "ands" in it, meaning you can get away without a PFD _only_ if you are less than 400m from shore _and_ you have a SoT kayak.

Otherwise you need a PFD1 or PFD2.

Cheers,
Graeme


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## Eddyline (Apr 28, 2009)

Hi all, it's not so simple.

PFDs are no longer required to have just the AUS standard and may now comply with Canadian, European or "any standard or specifications approved by the Maritime Authority". So the spectrum is getting pretty broad. In addition, Schedule 5, Parts 1 & 2 actually state that nothing is required on paddle craft, contradicting earlier Part 5, Division 3.

When I approached Maritime for clarification, they had their safety representative contact me but he was unable to explain the regs and I was told he'd get back to me. Nothing yet. My suggestion is to use common sense.

*Marine Safety (General) Regulation 2009 *
Current version for 27 March 2009 to date (accessed 29 April 2009 at 09:24)

Part 5, Division 1
Meaning of "lifejacket" and "appropriate lifejacket" (Clause 83)
(2) In this Regulation, a reference to an appropriate lifejacket is a reference to:
(a) in the case of a personal watercraft, kayak, canoe or windsurfer operating on open waters, a lifejacket Type 1 or a lifejacket Type 2, and
(b) in the case of a vessel (other than a personal watercraft, kayak, canoe or windsurfer) operating on open waters, a lifejacket Type 1, and
(c) in the case of a vessel operating on enclosed waters, a lifejacket Type 1, a lifejacket Type 2 or a lifejacket Type 3.
(3) Despite subclause (2), a lifejacket is not an appropriate lifejacket for the purposes of this Regulation if:
(a) the lifejacket relies solely on oral inflation for buoyancy, or
(b) the lifejacket is not the correct size for the wearer or intended wearer.
(4) Despite subclause (2), an inflatable lifejacket is not an appropriate lifejacket for the purposes of this Regulation unless it is:
(a) less than 12 months old, or
(b) has been serviced at intervals of 12 months or less, or at least at such longer intervals as are indicated by the manufacturer's instructions (if any) provided for the lifejacket.

Part 5, Division 3
Circumstances in which lifejacket must be worn on a canoe or kayak (Clause 85)
(1) Each person on board a canoe or kayak must wear an appropriate lifejacket when the vessel is being operated unless the vessel:
(a) is not more than 400 metres from the shore, and
(b) is propelled by paddle or oars in any enclosed waters between sunrise and sunset, and
(c) is not a tender, and
(d) is constructed so as to stay afloat if capsized.
(2) The operator of a canoe or kayak must ensure that each person on board the canoe or kayak complies with the requirements of this clause.

Schedule 4 Standard of safety equipment carried on recreational vessels
Personal flotation device Type 1
A personal flotation device that complies with:
(a) Australian Standard AS 1512-1996, Personal flotation devices-Type 1 (as in force from time to time) or any previous version of that Standard, or
(b) one of the following recognised standards for personal flotation devices, or types of personal flotation devices, that has been approved by a recognised appraiser:
(i) European Standard EN 399-1993 Lifejackets - 275N, as formulated, issued, prescribed or published by the European Committee for Standardization from time to time,
(ii) European Standard EN 396-1993 Lifejackets - 150N, as formulated, issued, prescribed or published by the European Committee for Standardization from time to time,
(iii) European Standard EN 395-1993 Lifejackets - 100N, as formulated, issued, prescribed or published by the European Committee for Standardization from time to time,
(iv) Canadian General Standards CAN/CGSB-65.11-M88 (for adults), as formulated, issued, prescribed or published by the Canadian General Standards Board from time to time, and CAN/CGSB-65.15-M88 Personal Flotation Devices for children, as formulated, issued, prescribed or published by the Canadian General Standards Board from time to time,
(v) Underwriters Laboratories Standards UL 1180 - Fully inflatable recreational personal flotation devices, as formulated, issued, prescribed or published from time to time,
(vi) New Zealand Standards NZ5823:2001 Type 401, as formulated, issued, prescribed or published from time to time, or
(c) any standard or specifications approved by the Maritime Authority.

In this Schedule, recognised appraiser means:
(a) a certifying body accredited by the Joint Accreditation System of Australia and New Zealand (JAS-ANZ), or
(b) a laboratory with National Association of Testing Authorities (NATA) accreditation, or
(c) a notified body in accordance with the European Union Maritime Equipment Directive, Module B (MED-B) as formulated, issued, prescribed or published from time to time, or
(d) a body approved by the Maritime Authority.

Personal flotation device Type 2
A personal flotation device that complies with:
(a) Australian Standard AS 1499-1996, Personal flotation devices-Type 2 (as in force from time to time) or any previous version of that Standard, or
(b) European Standard EN 393-1993 Lifejackets - 50N, as formulated, issued, prescribed or published by the European Union from time to time, or
(c) any standard or specifications approved by the Maritime Authority.

Personal flotation device Type 3
A personal flotation device that complies with:
(a) Australian Standard AS 2260-1996, Personal flotation devices-Type 3 (as in force from time to time) or any previous version of that Standard, or
(b) European Standard EN 393-1993 Lifejackets - 50N, as formulated, issued, prescribed or published by the European Union from time to time, or
(c) any standard or specifications approved by the Maritime Authority.

Schedule 5 Minimum safety equipment to be carried on recreational vessels
Part1- General requirements for safety equipment (Clause 84)
An appropriate lifejacket for each person on board the vessel In enclosed waters - YES In Open waters - YES

Part 2 - Modified requirements for specified vessels
(4) Modified safety equipment requirements for personal watercraft, kayaks and canoes on open waters
A personal watercraft, kayak or canoe (other than an outrigger canoe) on open waters is not required to carry safety equipment specified in Part 1.

(6) Modified safety equipment requirements for off-the-beach vessels
An off-the-beach vessel is not required to carry safety equipment specified in Part 1 if the vessel does not have sufficient storage room to carry the safety equipment specified in that Part in relation to the vessel.


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## CatfishKeith (Apr 17, 2009)

That clears it up :? :shock: I knew I should have studied law


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

Crikeys..confusion plus.

On another note - for those of you who DO wear PFD's when kayaking, have you ever actually tried going for a swim in your PFD to see how it reacts in the water? . HAve you ever tried getting back onto your upturned yak while wearing your pfd?

I'd be interested to know the % of AKFFers who've actually done this as I reckon it would be very small..

Also, most guys will have blind faith in their PFD without having ever tried it out. Many PFD 2's will help you float but WON"T stop your face from immersing in the water, so if you ARE knocked out then you'll float, but you may also drown.

Do yourself a favour and go for a swim in your PFD...


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## CatfishKeith (Apr 17, 2009)

Davey G

Yes PFDs aren't life jackets they just buoyancy vests, the issue is a balance of safety, functionality and practicality...

I don't have an issue with wearing a PFD but it's very difficult to work out what is best suited to the activity and is at the same time compliant with the legislation. That being said the legislation seems to be relatively confusing and considering there seems to be a significant amount of USCG approved PFDs on the market here in Australia but there is no mention of them in the legislation.

Which either means the jackets are being legally sold or the information about them from the sales people is misleading. This is a significant issue.

What makes is more interesting is that the legislation mentions EU standards but so far I haven't seen EU standards PFD on the market but heaps of USCG.

Are USCG PFDs compliant and what are standard are they compliant?

Im being told the Stohlquist fisherman in Mango Orange is compliant with the AUS standard for a type 2...Both the importer and a sales person at a Kayak shop here in Sydney have told me so..Is this true?

:?


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## Eddyline (Apr 28, 2009)

Yes and no. I've got one of the Stohlquist Fisherman PFDs and I reckon it'd the goods. The Stohlquist fisherman PFD has both US Coast Guard and Canadian Coast Guard approval. Both exceed the requirements for the AUS standard. They may even have the European standard, I'll have to check. Having said this, it's my belief that they have not been given AUS certification. I reckon if the standards exceed what's required and you're happy, then waterways are unlikely to audit a paddler they see wearing a PFD.

Ed


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

Davey G said:


> On another note - for those of you who DO wear PFD's when kayaking, have you ever actually tried going for a swim in your PFD to see how it reacts in the water? . HAve you ever tried getting back onto your upturned yak while wearing your pfd?
> 
> I'd be interested to know the % of AKFFers who've actually done this as I reckon it would be very small..


Dave when I first got the yak I practiced getting in from deep water, while wearing a cheapy PFD2 with about 4 plastic buckles and webbing across the chest and found entry difficult because the buckles kept catching on the gunwales of the yak and stopping my momentum upwards.

Replaced that PFD2 with one made by Perception with only a zipper up the front and a webbing belt and buckle at the waist only, with this one climbing in was a breeze and found it easier boarding with the PFD2 on, rather than without, as I was able to bounce much higher in the water before laying across the yak.

On a run through the surf got knocked arse up out the back and had no trouble swimming and surfing with it on for about 15 mins while caught in a rip and it was very reassuring feeling...biggest headache at that time was the paddle hampering me, and with hindsight I should have flung it away to float ashore where the Swing already was waiting on the beach


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## CatfishKeith (Apr 17, 2009)

Occy

I bought one and mentioned Akff but no discount


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## Junglefisher (Jun 2, 2008)

Davey G said:


> Crikeys..confusion plus.
> 
> On another note - for those of you who DO wear PFD's when kayaking, have you ever actually tried going for a swim in your PFD to see how it reacts in the water? . HAve you ever tried getting back onto your upturned yak while wearing your pfd?
> 
> ...


First thing I always do when I get a new yak or PFD is take it down to the local freshwater lake, see how stable the yak is then tip it over. Find out how hard it is to flip, how best to reboard etc. Find out if hatches seal properly, try putting water in the hull and see if I can paddle it. Make sure the PFD has plenty of bouyancy, swim pulling the yak along nearly full of water. If you don't practise in ideal conditions, how can you hope to do it in 2m waves, 68knot winds when it's -12C and there's sharks fighting the jellyfish down below your feet? I also use my PFD for waterskiing  .


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## ELM (Jul 14, 2008)

> As long as I using a Yak that is designed not to sink if capsized, like my Hobie Revo, I can use a type 3 PFD such as the Stohlquist Fisherman PFD when off-shore?


Sorry but I think your Revo will sink, as there are no sealed compartments etc from the manufacturer.


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