# Clothing - a question of 'waterproof'



## abitfishy (Sep 24, 2006)

With all the different types of material all these clothes for kayaking are made of is there is anything thats 'real' waterproof - ie, that will keep my backside dry when actually sitting in water in the Prowler? I was going to buy something from Basspro but on enquiring they mentioned none of their products are suitable and are more a 'rain and splashproof' type of waterproof.

Thanks.


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

abitfishy said:


> ie, that will keep my backside dry when actually sitting in water in the Prowler? .


Abit.. I am guessing you have a wet quoit from your scuppers, so why not just plug them mate.

I have the swing plugged and other than paddle slash, the only time I get wet is if it rains or a wave was to drop into the yak and I then mop it up again


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## Dodge (Oct 12, 2005)

leftieant said:


> I reckon I'm going to try a pair of plastic-type pants from Ray's or similar.


Ant when I first started out, I used nylon rain trousers and cut them off at the knee like long shorts, and they kept me dry OK but were too hot in our climate, and a pee was a challenge also :lol:


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## Peril (Sep 5, 2005)

Hope Doug Gax sees this as a lot of his compatriots seem to use waders. I'm intereted to know if they stay dry or just warm. I've settled for staying warm but wet.

Plugging seat scuppers is a good idea for calm water but I think I prefer unplugged for open water. Recently opened my seat scuppers (involved removing foam plugs and cutting a PE membrane so they were truly sealed) and I no longer have water sitting on top of my centre hatch (there is another narrow scupper in the seat well but the seat pad blocks it). This means much less water in the hull


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## abitfishy (Sep 24, 2006)

Thanks guys.

Plugging the scuppers is obviously an idea, but I somehow tend to gather water anyway - I think I'm a messy paddler.


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## GoneFishn (May 17, 2007)

I use the "plastic type" pants from rays and they work well and before I got my neoprene boots I used to wear thigh waders to keep my feet and lower legs dry and warm in winter. A lot of the guys do use waders and it has been demonstrated that they will not drown you if you fall of your yak with them on, yes they will fill with some water but it wont sink you.


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## onemorecast (Apr 17, 2006)

I gave away the idea of staying "dry" from the waist down and went with staying warm. I use "radiator pants" and some old dive boots. They keep me warm and I don't have to worry about some water splashing in as if it does I'm still comfortable. Tried a 3 mil farmer john, but it zippered which was a nuisance and when it got too warm i twas fiddly unzipping and then having it rolled down under another shirt.


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## anthropomorphic (Sep 27, 2007)

Personally I am surprised these items aren't more popular, or even available in Oz.
http://www.tackleshop.co.uk/productdeta ... ellers2008

I'm looking at getting one for when winter yakking/fishing up the mountains. Be seriously useful for rock fishing as well, given that deaths occur from being swept off the rocks semi regularly.

Note these are bouyant, but not a complete replacement for a quality PFD.

Cheers,
anthropomorphic


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## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

You can always use a dry suit like the sea kayakers use. They have gaskets at the waist, ankles, wrists and neck and will keep you dry. I've always thought that they would be too restrictive. Any of the rubberized fabrics will keep you dry, but they don't breath. Sweating my ass off in rubber waders would probably be more uncomfortable than just getting wet.

The breathable waders and splash pants (waders with the feet cut out) that I use keep me dry most of the time. They are great for staying dry when launching through the surf, but they will eventually soak through if you are sitting in water for a prolonged period of time. Most of the breathable fabrics are essentially just like GoreTex. When immersed in water for a while they will eventually saturate. How long it takes for water to soak through is dependent on the material, lining and the garment's age. I have a Navy-issue GoreTex rain parka that is so old it only keeps me dry for the first five minutes of the rain storm :lol: There are treatments that can restore the water repelling capacity of GoreTex, but it is never as good as when it is new.

Notice the water beading on these brand new waders









Not-so-new waders soaking through a little









The breathable waders (I use Hodgman) tend to dry quickly. The best thing about the breathable fabrics is that they are great wind barriers. I don't mind being a little damp when I paddle; just as long as the wind can't get to my skin. A damp wetsuit in windy conditions will make for a miserable day of paddling.


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## sulo (Apr 9, 2007)

The trouble with "waterproof " clothing is that while you might keep the water out, but a lot of them don't breathe too well and you end up getting saturated with sweat from the inside. We get as good a set of raincoat/pants as you can get from the Council for working in the rain [obviously] ,but at the end the day when you take it all off you usually finished being lathered in sweat.This may not happen so much in really cold weather but if it gets just a little warm they make you sweat like a pig.


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

I grin and bare it - and anyhow my wife like wallnuts !!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

As long as my core is warm and dry - which it is - and also my feet - I can handle cold /wet legs and butt. Although my knees do get cold and I find it hard to walk afterwards for a few mins ...


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Dodge said:


> leftieant said:
> 
> 
> > OK but were too hot in our climate, and a pee was a challenge also :lol:


Whats the matter old fella , a bit challenged for length , :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## sulo (Apr 9, 2007)

Whats the matter old fella , a bit challenged for length , :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote] 

Hey are you making fun of us little fellas Baz ? When I bought my kayak I never realised going for a whizzer was gonna be such a big issue until the first time I needed to do one. Thank gawd for a 1 L bucket thats all I can say. :lol: 
Pauls Sports Warehouse was having a sellout here a couple of weeks ago and I toyed with the idea of trying a pair of neoprene water ski shorts and get a velcro fly put in 'em. Didn't think much point in the end.The amount of times I go offshore and get the best looking part of me wet are rare so didn't think much point.


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## Baldy (Oct 1, 2007)

Went through this search myself recently, finding paddle gear to suit sit in yaks is much easier than a solution for sot's I found. I tried my neoprene waders but found them a bit uncomfortable, the big blundstone boots were a bit bulky. being a skinny bugger they just dont fit me that well, I know a couple of fellas wear them and find them just fine, but they wernt for me, a shame too because I have 2 pair...one set thats never been wet. Which is the reason I wasnt interested in the breathable waders option for the yak, the flyndry neoprenes are just brilliant for tassie conditions so I dont need breathable waders....not that Im doing any shorebashing these days...

I considered a wetsuit but I dont really like wearing them and I would need something over the top as wind protection anyway, I know Scott wears just his wetty but hes hardcore :twisted: :lol: ...no brain ...no pain you know :lol: I know from experience that putting on a damp cold wetsuit early in the morning isnt the most pleasant experience :shock:

Next option I looked at was a drysuit, well a semi-drysuit, kokatat make one called the supernova, only difference to a true drysuit is this one has a neoprene type material neck gasket, rather than the tight latex ones. Not goretex but still some kind of breathable fabric. The problem was getting them in Australia, i couldnt find anyone who had them in stock and the prices I was quoted were well above the online US price[$470US--$730AU....hmmm I dont think so Tim....

Next option and the one I went with, I stumbled across while looking for drysuit options, after trying them on I knew this is what would suit me best, Ive only used them once so far and found the setup really comfortable, I did get a bit hot but that was because I had thermals, trackies, shirts, flannie under it all :lol: Working out how much layering I will need for a certain temp will be the key.

Like Dougs waders the water beads off the surface, an ability im sure will fade with time but im sure theres some kind of scotchguard type product you can treat them with.

Anyway, I took a few pics to give you an idea of whats out there, they arnt goretex but some other kind of breathable material, the jacket some kind of 3 layer setup, still not what I call cheap but not the goretex pricetag either. They are made by MTI Adventurewear.


















The waistbands have some kind of rubberized neoprene on the insides, they are tightened with velcro.









Backside... The jacket has latex wrist seals but doesnt have a latex neck gasket, its some kind of soft rubber. The neck seal is good enough to keep the sit in yakkers dry for multiple rolls so the woman who runs the kayak shop/tours down there, so thats good enough for me, I really didnt want a latex neck so glad I found this one.









Same rubber type stuff inside the ankle seal, with those waterproof booties it kept my feet dry while in shin deep water when launching, which is what I wanted but they were still a little bit cold for the first hour, Im looking into a warmer waterproof boots at the moment but these ones will be fine when its a bit warmer[it was 19 that day and they were good once it warmed up a bit]

I havnt done the immersion leak test obviously, I'll wait for a warmer day for that one[I dont know anyone with a pool :lol: ] But I cant see how any water can get through that waist setup, I would expect some leakage from the ankle seals though. I use a stormy seas yoke PFD, so the whole setup is really comfy to paddle in. As for taking a leak....well thats not gonna be easy on the yak but it would be alot easier than a drysuit or even a wetty, if im offshore and the need is that great....the footwells drain ok in the new prowlers :lol: :lol:

Sorry to go on a bit but if it helps one person to make a decision then it was worth it!! :lol: Because I know how hard it was for me to decide which way to go.

Cheers
Baldy


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## abitfishy (Sep 24, 2006)

Nice write up mate. Looking forward to getting the results of the water test. As you say, its a bit cold, but are you man or mouse? :lol:


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

Only thing I know of that will keep you 100%dry is a dry suit....Expensive, will sweat your guts out and you can't escape for a leek. Will keep you bone dry in or out of the water though.
Cheers
Mike


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## billythebass (Mar 17, 2008)

hello there  i didnt realise that it got that cold in aus ' but a drysuit will keep u very dry and warm .. fishing at night i can imagine that if you where offshore ' then you would be glad of it. if your new to kayaking / fishing from 1 ' your confidence kicks in big time 'mabee its the ..im not goin to get wet..or mabee its the fact is when you put it on ' you look like BUCK RODGERS...  if your to hot then slow down / stop . its v cold here at the moment so its part of kayaing in winter   ..billy ps if you look for used drysuits in ebay uk $150 $250 aus mabee


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## EricIsBananaman (Apr 13, 2008)

mmmm 2nd hand drysuit sounds a bit much for me....


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## Ferrins (Apr 7, 2008)

Was on the lookout for a pair of off shore foul weather bib pants to go with the my Mustang Survival Jacket and got a smick pair like new for $50. The guy used to do Sydney to Hobart's. These would retail for around $700. THis gear suits my needs as I like to fish allnight and it gets pretty chilly a couple of hours before Dawn.


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## ausbass (Feb 15, 2007)

I have seen somewhere that waterproof/resistant clothing is rated in pressure and/or mm, 1600mm is the least rating a peice of waterPROOF clothing can have. this means a good jacket shuld have a pressure rating of around 2000mm.
check out wikipedia for more information


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2008)

All breathable 'waterproof' garments come with a durable water repellancy (DWR) and this has nothing to do with the breathable, so called waterproof membrane. It has everything to do with the impregnated finish on the outer skin. Its working if water beads off. It isn't if it sets in and 'wets out' the outer fabric. It does lose performance over time, and for some fabrics, that might not be terribly long. It can, however, be brought back to life (in good fabrics) by either ironing it, or tumble drying it with a good heat. Sounds weird I know, but it will work with fabrics like Gore-Tex, Emphatex and other quality 'me-to' brand names. The DWR can also be helped by applying a restoration treatment - this is best applied with an iron or hot tumble dry treatment in most cases. Grangers, for example, have a particularly good one thats worked well for me in the past.

Don't get me wrong - the inner membrane will be waterproof to a point, depending on it's waterhead rating, which is the pressure test aus-bass is referring to. Sit in any puddle long enough and many (most) will start leaking. Personally I see the inner membrane as being more wind proof than waterproof. If you really want to stay dry using breathables, keep up the DWR. This is easier said than done sometimes.

I should add that for many breathable fabrics to work as advertised, they need a 'micro climate' built up underneath the shell (such as body heat). Without it, there is little or no air-pressure resisting water pressure forces from the other side. Such a thing as a micro climate is pretty much impossible to achieve without at least some layer of air for it to form. So sitting on ones arse in a puddle (in a permeable fabric) is unlikely to work as intended. Breathabke wp garments are only as good as they are cracked up to be when new, or properly cared for, and in the right circumstances.


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## ausbass (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree with everything that 5th Novemebr said, the DWR of a garment should be maintained as this is what keeps you dry! Some stuff like shoes and boots that conatin breathable fabrics such as GORETEX should have their DWR maintained using special water-reppelling spray-on solvents (sold at good camping stores), though each fabric has its own way of maintaining this critical 'waterproofness' of the garment. 
If you are just sitting in water in your kayak, maybe get some neoprene (wetsuit material) and sit that underneath you?

BTW; I have some Columbia Madruga Peak GTX boots that are 2 years old, these are waterproof thanks to GORETEX and I haven't maintained them all that well to be honest and they are still waterproof, though I like to say; PPPPPP or Proper Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance!


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## ausbass (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree with everything that 5th Novemebr said, the DWR of a garment should be maintained as this is what keeps you dry! Some stuff like shoes and boots that conatin breathable fabrics such as GORETEX should have their DWR maintained using special water-reppelling spray-on solvents (sold at good camping stores), though each fabric has its own way of maintaining this critical 'waterproofness' of the garment. 
If you are just sitting in water in your kayak, maybe get some neoprene (wetsuit material), double it over and sit that underneath you?

BTW; I have some Columbia Madruga Peak GTX boots that are 2 years old, these are waterproof thanks to GORETEX and I haven't maintained them all that well to be honest and they are still waterproof, though I like to say; PPPPPP or Proper Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance!


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2008)

DWR is much harder to keep active in boots (because most good ones are heat-re/activated, and who the hell irons or tumble-dries shoes), but on the flip side, the membrane waterhead rating holds better because the microclimate within a shoe is pretty intense (which is why feet in boots for lengthy periods stink so much). This makes the membrane work better and AB, I'm guessing this is why your boots are holding up without maintenance. I've had the same experience with Garmont boots. But as I mentioned, that's got nothing to do with the DWR. Boots will often wet out without leaking, whereas a jacket will wet out and actually permeate water.

There are lots of wp membrane fabrics and a lot of them are good, a lot of them are shite. Gore-tex is pretty safe, but as you say, depends on waterhead rating (not all the same) and DWR applied, as well as the fabric it is applied to. Emphatex (the aussie variant) is usually excellent. There are good pommie, german and french variants I know of, but the names escape me at this hour. There are many cheap knock offs that are crap - and by saying that, I specifically mean the membrane, not the DWR.

Some wp fabrics don't use a mebrane and don't need a DWR, usually the cheapies. Fabrics like PVC or polyurthane coated nylon or polyester will be completely hydrophobic. Problem is that they don't breathe and thus, condensation builds up inside and makes you wet anyway. The closer to your skin non breathables are, the worse you will sweat.

And AB, the original 'p' statement as I know it is 7 p's (coined by the SAS) and goes: proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance. But your version says the same thing 

Oh, and here's some useless trivia to put in yer books of useless info: Gore-tex was first used by surgeons for long operations. Protective gloves, etc. The industry that its made a name for itself in isn't the industry that it was intended for.


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## FoolInjected (Feb 4, 2008)

Been giving this topic a lot of thought with the cold coming on 
A dry suit will keep you dry but are bulky and don't breath, same for waders
My opinion is one reason to wear this sort of garb is to be comfortable. 
Breathabiliy is the first factor in comfort in my opinion. No point being 'dry' if your 'wet' and clamy from sweat.

For the top I will likely go a Gortex type Jacket. I am checking out cycling jackets at the moment. Just need to find one DWR qualities. Check cycling stores for breathable yakking clothing
"Skins" type of long sleeved nylon shirt with hood (spf 30+) underneath and thermal singlet when really cold.
Skins are those tight fitting cloths sports people wear

For the bottom I have resigned to the fact that a wet bum is part of kayaking. I''m sitting padded seat which just holds the water any way. So best approach is DRY QUICK. Probably go with some Skins shorts and put leg warmers on after I launch and dry off.

Being a tall skinny mongrel I will probably look like an cross gender anorexic ballet dancer with gum boots on but who cares it's fishing not a fashion show


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

With this shark skin and my wetsuit with boots and socks and a jumper on the top I went out Tuesday night in the wind and rain. 730pm-300am. The only thing that got cold in this time was my fingers and a quick dip in the water relieved the wind chill. Next time I won't forget my gloves. Oh, also wore a beanie. Getting out of the yak at the ramp meant I had wet legs on my shark skin but the rest of me was dry enough to sit in the car with my sharkskin on for the drive home. The other good thing about the sharkskin is the zipper zips up from the bottom as well for when nature calls. Was toasty warm and would've stayed that way in the water if the unthinkable happened.
Cheers
Mike


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## LatelyLux (May 6, 2008)

Might sound a bit off to some of you, but why not do what surfers and scuba divers do to keep warm?

Pee in your wetsuit!!! Any surfer or diver who tells you they don't do it is lying.
We used to drink about 2L of water on the boat so we could pee in the suit and still
have enough fluid to prevent the dehyrdation feeling you get from breathing the dry air.

Probably going to cut down my old 5mm steamer I used to dive in, the gut's a bit big for it atm.

Brett


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## abitfishy (Sep 24, 2006)

Funny you say that though. Do you remember one of those shows on TV about some kid (surfer) who got attacked by sharks (GW I think) 3 times or so? He was an avid surfer and they reckon that the shark went for him all the time when there were other surfers nearby because he had more of a odor in the water than the others. Makes you think twice about peeing in your wetsuit.


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## fishydude (Dec 30, 2007)

With no water flow and the fact that most wetties now have a fleecey inner surface you will find the stink hangs with you a lot worse than in a steamer in the water.(wetsuit type steamer, that is). :shock: 
Cheers
Mike


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## justcrusin (Oct 1, 2006)

I'm a cheapskate and like others don't mind being wet as long as i'm warm, I just use king gee / shimano style trousers in winter I will add a pair of trackie dacks and some long thick socks under my wetsuit material type boots, cheap ones for BIAS or Whitworths.

I wear a kayak smock on top in wet weather and it works great

Cheers Dave


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## sitonit (Dec 29, 2006)

i use shark skinz and love em but they are damn expensive but very comfy unlike wetsuits


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## LatelyLux (May 6, 2008)

I think I'll try cutting down the wetsuit first (but if nee go to the toilet just go into the bank) and see how warm that gets me. 
Got to find them first, down the back in the shipping container somewhere... hope I didn't throw them out!!! If thats no goo I'll look at the skins.
My wife has some skins for her fitness training and she loves them, very comfy and allow unrestricted movement (hers aren'e the insulated ones).
I'm getting a good 3in1 jacket for work that is water/wind proof and breathable. The fleece vest can be jipped out for warmer weather wear too.
And being for work it is a tax deduction, even better!!

The Hobie Quest should be arriving around lunch today, getting itchy for a paddle.

Brett


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