# Which PFD?



## Dubbzy

Hi all,

I am just trying to get into Kayak fishing. Looking hard for a good second hand rig that will suit me.

in the mean time, i was just wondering what PFD do you guys use and why? ie fit, style, coolness?

and is all that is required in QLD a PFD 2?

any advise would be greatly appreciated.


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## dru

Actually, this is an interesting g topic. No really. We have opinion on yaks. And paddles. And VHF and PLBs, and well everything.

But not on PFDs. Wonder why?

I have a 5 year old Perception PFD with a central pocket. It's been great. From here I've been thinking smaller for paddling (and less flotation). And I've been thinking about a canal bladder in the PFD. Ultimately though, my basic Perveption takes some beating.


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## solatree

I have a Trek Ultra - it has several pockets. I attach knife, camera, GPS and whistle to it and carry spare rigs, pepermints, muesli bars and sun glasses in the pockets. Could carry a camel back if I wanted. An essential piece of kit.


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## intrepid

indiedog said:


> First sample is made and I hope to see it next week.


i have the Ultra Trek - not sure if ti is the 2?

it is this one:










but one negative is the big zipper on the side entry thingy on the right, it hits my arm when casting leftwards...

easy fix is to un zip it when working a LHS shoreline, but still annoying... can you pass that on? maybe an upside down zip or something?

that said - it is awesome, very comfortable - carry my Icom M32 VHF, leatherman skeletool, scissors, fox40 whistle, RV mirror, forceps, handheld GPS/android phone, 1.5L of water, camera and snacks in my one!


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## loosealliance

So the consensus is the Trek Ultra? I don't wear a PFD but I was thinking about getting a vest with storage so I may as well make it a PFD. How expensive are they? Any other options that have a lot of storage?


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## loosealliance

eric said:


> I picked up one of these on the way to Marlo.
> 
> http://www.groovyoutdoors.com/ek/cvest.jpg
> 
> Fantastic. It's a PFD III, but is highly visible and has reflective patches as well. It held me up easily after getting dumped in the surf and is chock full of pockets.


Marlo? how much was it? What is the brand and model? Its looks pretty good in the photo!

Thanks!


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## loosealliance

eric said:


> My bad.
> 
> It's the NRS C-Vest. I got it for.... $130ish from Gippsland Kayak Company in Bairnsdale.
> 
> http://gippslandkayakcompany.com.au/sto ... cvest-pfd/


Thanks! They look really good actually. I might just grab one. How bulky are they? Easy to paddle in?


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## loosealliance

eric said:


> I was using an MTI Calcutta before this, which I did find bulky, but there might have been an element of not fitting it properly. Had Rowie in that all weekend and he loved it, and he's a paddler.
> 
> The NRS C-Vest is great, doesn't seem bulky to me, rear block is nice and high, and didn't interfere with my paddling at all.


Thanks for the feed back. I am working on tracking one down near by so I can try it on


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## Jeffen

To answer the QLD regs question, it is PFD type 2 in smooth or partially smooth waters and PFD type 1 beyond smooth and partially smooth waters.
You will have to do some research to determine what sort of waters you are paddling in.

Info is here.

http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/~/media/m...t recreational ships/rec_safety_equipment.pdf

I use the Ultra Angler PFD - not enough pockets, but I forget I'm wearing this thing most of the time, unfortunately, I don't think anyone is selling it these days.


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## systemtester

Just checking into this thread. I'm a brand new yak owner, am going to a safety day in a couple of weeks and don't have a pfd. :shock: come at me.

Any Brisbane lads have a store they can recommend? The Trek Ultras in all sizes are on fleabay but I'd rather throw my cash at a local business owner after I've tried something on. Happy to drop your name in store if that helps with future purchase discounts


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## kayakone

loosealliance said:


> So the consensus is the Trek Ultra? I don't wear a PFD but I was thinking about getting a vest with storage so I may as well make it a PFD. How expensive are they? Any other options that have a lot of storage?


WARNING: I'm going to come on here with some strong comments. I don't intend to offend, but just to explain why I think those approaches are flawed. If you don't wear a PFD or you wear an inflatable, and might take offence, read no further.



loosealliance said:


> .... How expensive are they? Any other options that have a lot of storage?


"How expensive?" - Less expensive than drowning. There are a few others who do not wear a PFD. I cannot understand the thinking. If you go off your yak:
1. it usually happens suddenly, without warning.
2. it is usually in rough conditions (not necessarily surf). 
3. It could be a locked drag (ask Douglas), a momentary loss of concentration, anything.
4. You might even fall off dehooking a snag, or hitting your head on a branch. 
5. You might also capsize, get entanglement, lose your yak, get hit on the head, be hooked or otherwise hurt.
6. You may be violently ill.
7. You might be in cold water (particularly inland waters), suffering cold water shock, and therefore incapable of doing anything, even inflating an inflatable.
8. Speaking of inflatables and kayak fishing - they won't work with a hook in them, or a fish spine, and, points 4 - 7 above may prevent you inflating the device.(Tonystott is going to shoot me here - uhoh  )

When you are in the *shit* folks, you need to be afloat. Instantly. You have enough to worry about, like removing entaglements, successful re-entry, without worrying about trying to stay afloat.

Trust me...fall off in just 15 knots (I did), and see how fast your yak moves away from you. Try 20 - 25 knots (I did), and see how little time your head is out of the waves (I was in a high float PFD - the Trek Ultra). Try doing it without a PFD...... (actually please don't, you'll probably drown  ).

Besides all this, they make great storage for lots of safety kit.

Just saying....


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## Wedge

I appreciate that there is a reasonable following for the Ultra Trek but after quite a bit of consideration I'm leaning to a "Stormy Lite" Inflatable 100N PFD 1. Good safety colours, plenty of pockets, leash attachment and centre zip.

Does anyone out there (including tonystott) have one and can give me the pro's and con's or suggest one that is equivalent or better - and why? From the prices I have seen they are about $179.00 retail, if anyone can lead me to a better deal in Victoria, I'm all ears.

Cheers
Wedge :-D :-D


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## roge

I bought one of these http://www.stormylifejackets.com.au/rec ... ssic-150n/
Its comfy ,lightweight and the quality seems good.Not the cheapest but most commercial boaties down here wear their gear.


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## Stealthfisha

Is there any primary boyancy in a capsize situation?
Or do you have to inflate it manually?

Edit: thesetwo comments are to envoke manual inflatable users to think twice and please buy a normal pfd. (Sorry if these comments looked like noob questions)

There is a bloody good reason for not purchasing manual inflatable type. As already discussed by every major paddling org around the world....they are NOT safe in 90% of situations where you need instant flotation and or survival situations.

this is not only my opinion but tons of fishingyak pros as well....its safety 1st then fishing...
please also dont take this personally.....its not....I want you to survive your first capsizing should it ever happen.(its not gunna happen in a nice sunny calm day...its gunna happen in a follwing swell with big wind gusts and when your fatigued and trying to get home from outwide or a reef)...please take it back and within the fare trading act timeline and request an ultra etc on the grounds that it does not suit your needs...please.


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## Stealthfisha

Ive edited my above post as it needed clarification

No personal offence made at dubbsy and or tony...


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## dru

Horses for courses. On the whole my choices will be exactly as Stealthfisha.

BUT, where we have comps with ridiculous rules regarding PFD1 I would opt for a manual inflatable. Or not attend that comp.


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## Stealthfisha

Ditto Dru...pfd 1 for enclosed water comps would be the exception to the manual inflatable rule...and or maybe a AI?


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## dru

Hey Tony, mate are you sure about PFD1 over bars? Specifically for kayaks? Not saying this is wrong, but I am surprised.

For me they have not yet developed a PFD1 that is suitable for paddling. Spoke to some guys in PaddleNSW recently. They are working through surf ski reluctance to use flotation and still have reasonable safety rules. The last issue was around bulk in front of the body getting in the road on re entry. Remember that re entry for these guys onto skinny skis is a different task entirely than our issues.

They were looking at no bulk at the front, flotations to the rear, but the front being inflatable. Sounds worth testing I think. Not going to solve the knock out face down risk, but will give life savers a better chance.

Back on the current breed of inflatables for yakking, I don't like them. Auto inflate when wet clearly no good for us. And clearly anyone knocked out will not be able to activate it. Statistics surely not essential to see a flaw. The kid who died on the GC in a SLSA race recently (presumed knocked out in surf I believe) - an inflatable PFD1 would reduce this risk by nought.

Another limitation is if you capsize and want extra support, so inflate the device. Now you are back on board trying to paddle in a PFD1. Uncomfortable at least. I suppose you could partially deflate, and re inflate if their are further issues, but this does not sound to me as solid a solution as a PFD2. If this was my equipment, I would think through how I might approach these issues.

Most of this becomes redundant if someone has invented a (inflated) PFD1 that provides for ease of paddling. Is their one?


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## roge

I am not sure what all the fuss is about.In many photos in the Hobie catalogue /website kayakers can be seen wearing inflatable yokes.


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## dru

Tony, sorry, but your argument becomes self defeating at this stage. If we don't need protection against being knocked out, then there is little to no advantage in a PFD1 over a PFD2.

Roge, Hobie brochures are hardly an acknowledged safety authority.

Just to reiterate, I really am not trying to push a polemic here. The main difference between PFD1 and PFD2 is that a PFD1 has a reasonable chance of keeping your head out of the water in a position that permits breathing... Even if unconscious. They achieve this with bulk. Bulk that is in my view incompatible with paddling. Certainly a comfort issue as a minimum. Paddling comfort off shore can quickly become another safety issue.

The inflatables are an attempt to achieve PFD1 regs without the bulk. To sensibly follow through on the rating they offer auto inflate when wet. But we are talking about items that cheat the system, if knocked out you can't inflate in which case it is not PFD1. In fact a PFD 2 is way more superior than a non-inflated inflatable PFD1.

So for safety I choose a PFD2 which also is designed for paddling. If I need to overcome an idiot restriction that demands PFD1, and if the safety risk isn't high, I might choose an inflatable PFD1, but it's purely a matter if convenience, I'm not really wearing it for safety.


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## dru

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not so sure about this. Granted health issues like heart attack. With you there. And we do see collision with Stink boats, rare but a definite risk.

The biggest risk I suspect is the surf zone. An area that sea kayak instructors insist on helmets.

Otoh, if the risk of being knocked out is generally real and high, we are kind of stuffed. Or perhaps all on Hobies. Paddling g is not ideal in a PFD 1.

My issue is more that with an inflatable, it might be rated PFD1, but this seems to me a nonsense. Both PFD2 and PFD 3 are appropriate for yakking IMHO.


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## kayakone

kraley said:


> Tonystott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same here... We see this hypothetical "get knocked out and cannot inflate the PFD". Get knocked out how? I don't see many items on a kayak capable of knocking someone out.
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine that if you really need a PFD - the chances of you being unconscious are fairly large. In fact, the only people I know that have been seriously injured whilst kayaking were the victims of conditions that rendered them unconcious (heart attack and collision).
Click to expand...

I think Ken's opinion is correct, as was Dru's. You never know what may happen in a second (I've had a whale come up next to the sea kayak and nearly tip it. I never saw it coming, and the wash was enough to tip most kayaks).

Here's one way to fall off/capsize your yak, in calmish conditions (there are plenty of other ways). Kudos to Douglas for having the courage to post it.



Couta101 said:


> I thought that I had plenty of offshore experience....which I actually do, but it is amazing how one small un-noticed mistake can set off a chain of events, which in this case turned out to be funny but for many it many have ended very differently.
> 
> We always talk about kayak safety, and too many of us make excuses....I now ask all of you to re-assess how you think about what can or can't go wrong is a second!
> 
> Enough of the serious.............lets get to the funnies! :lol:


BTW, this was one of the most 'liked' posts ever, so we may assume it has helped a lot of people. It was not a situation where one might have expected to be capsized. I think Ken is right.






Then there are those other reasons I mentioned in this earlier post:



kayakone said:


> There are a few others who do not wear a PFD. I cannot understand the thinking. If you go off your yak:
> 1. it usually happens suddenly, without warning.
> 2. it is usually in rough conditions (not necessarily surf).
> 3. It could be a locked drag (ask Douglas), a momentary loss of concentration, anything.
> 4. You might even fall off dehooking a snag, or hitting your head on a branch.
> 5. You might also capsize, get entanglement, lose your yak, get hit on the head, be hooked or otherwise hurt.
> 6. You may be violently ill.
> 7. You might be in cold water (particularly inland waters), suffering cold water shock, and therefore incapable of doing anything, even inflating an inflatable.
> 8. Speaking of inflatables and kayak fishing - they won't work with a hook in them, or a fish spine, and, points 4 - 7 above may prevent you inflating the device.
> 
> When you are in the *shit* folks, you need to be afloat. Instantly. You have enough to worry about, like removing entaglements, successful re-entry, without worrying about trying to stay afloat.
> 
> Trust me...fall off in just 15 knots (I did), and see how fast your yak moves away from you. Try 20 - 25 knots (I did), and see how little time your head is out of the waves (I was in a high float PFD - the Trek Ultra). Try doing it without a PFD...... (actually please don't, you'll probably drown  ).
> 
> Besides all this, they make great storage for lots of safety kit.
> 
> Just saying....


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## dru

Tonystott said:


> Just bear in mind that a PFD2 does not need to be able to turn an unconscious person up the right way..... This is the fundamental difference between a PFD1 and a PFD2 (applies even if both are foam-filled)


Groan.

Readers, work it out yourself, I lost the will to continue repeating myself. PFD2 is the answer. A manually inflatable PFD1 is not.


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## kayakone

dru said:


> Tonystott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just bear in mind that a PFD2 does not need to be able to turn an unconscious person up the right way..... This is the fundamental difference between a PFD1 and a PFD2 (applies even if both are foam-filled)
> 
> 
> 
> Groan.
> 
> Readers, work it out yourself, I lost the will to continue repeating myself. PFD2 is the answer. A manually inflatable PFD1 is not.
Click to expand...

And I agree Dru, but I understand Tony's desire to address a couple of problems at once with his inflatable. Tony is no idiot. He has done a lot of stuff in rough water and decades of sailing. What he is trying to do is take into account actual legislation (not getting into state law variance here). It raises a few questions:

1. *What is a bar?* (where PFD1 is required):

(a) Is it a sandbar outside a gutter on a surf beach? 
(b) Or is it only a sandbar in an estuary mouth?

If point 1. is included, hundreds of kayakers Australia wide are breaching the regulations daily. If not, few of us launch through river bars, and we are not breaching regulations doing surf launches. _*Maybe the authorities need to clarify this*_, but IMO. there is no difference in risk to the kayaker, as Nevevic and BigGee have pointed out. _One_ bump on the head, in even tiny surf, and you are cactus in a PFD 2, unless help is close at hand.

The other side of the coin is simple: You cannot paddle in a PFD1, whereas you can in a PFD2. It's a classic case of PPE _increasing_ the risk.


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## roge

That is your opinion ,which you are quite entitled to.However Marine and Safety Tasmania are happy for Kayakers to use PFD1 inflatables.Stormy (A very well respected company) are unlikely to be suggesting kayakers wear an inflatable if it is unsafe to do so.


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## dru

kayakone said:


> dru said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tonystott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just bear in mind that a PFD2 does not need to be able to turn an unconscious person up the right way..... This is the fundamental difference between a PFD1 and a PFD2 (applies even if both are foam-filled)
> 
> 
> 
> Groan.
> 
> Readers, work it out yourself, I lost the will to continue repeating myself. PFD2 is the answer. A manually inflatable PFD1 is not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And I agree Dru, but I understand Tony's desire to address a couple of problems at once with his inflatable. Tony is no idiot. He has done a lot of stuff in rough water and decades of sailing. What he is trying to do is take into account actual legislation (not getting into state law variance here). It raises a few questions:
> 
> 1. *What is a bar?* (where PFD1 is required):
> 
> (a) Is it a sandbar outside a gutter on a surf beach?
> (b) Or is it only a sandbar in an estuary mouth?
> 
> If point 1. is included, hundreds of kayakers Australia wide are breaching the regulations daily. If not, few of us launch through river bars, and we are not breaching regulations doing surf launches. _*Maybe the authorities need to clarify this*_, but IMO. there is no difference in risk to the kayaker, as Nevevic and BigGee have pointed out. _One_ bump on the head, in even tiny surf, and you are cactus in a PFD 2, unless help is close at hand.
> 
> The other side of the coin is simple: You cannot paddle in a PFD1, whereas you can in a PFD2. It's a classic case of PPE _increasing_ the risk.
Click to expand...

May all the yakkers fishing in bars please stand up. And now tell me that you are successfully paddling in PFD1s. And expect me to believe it.

K1, there are other issues that are risk to sailing. (The boom is a starter.) And a PFD response will be different. I respect Tony on all things except for the Groundhog Day happening in this conversation.


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## kayakone

roge said:


> That is your opinion,which you are quite entitled to. However Marine and Safety Tasmania are happy for Kayakers to use PFD1 inflatables. Stormy (A very well respected company) are unlikely to be suggesting kayakers wear an inflatable if it is unsafe to do so.


I am not disputing Stormy's reputation as an inflatable PFD1 manufacturer, but I disagree that it is the best option for kayakers, bar crossings or not. Our motor is ability to paddle. If you can't paddle, you are in deeper sh*t. They are a commercial company operating within the regulations for that state

I am not disputing Marine and Safety Tasmania being happy for kayakers to use PFD1 inflatables. I wonder if any of their staff have tried to paddle a kayak in one (easy - uninflated), _*but*_ *are they aware of the implications for situations where inflation may be impossible when in trouble.* (more likely with kayakers). Are they aware of all the scenarios where manual inflation may not be possible? (head injury); sick; cold water shock, etc.)

Regardless of the rules, if you can't paddle you are a liability.


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## dru

K1, my apologies, I see just how quickly this has gone bizarre. Should have shut up when you gave me the nudge.


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## roge

Tonystott said:


> Kayaks with pedals are not affected by bulky PFDs.


Amen brother.


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## mangajack

Whilst I do not normally wear a PFD, when heading offshore or into less than ideal conditions I will throw one on.

I have three vests, an inflatable for very long days on the water where a normal vest annoys the shit out of me.
An Ultra Trek 2 which is a good vest but I find it bulky after about 3 hours.
A Blade paddle vest, which is comfortable and less bulky due to it not having pockets.

To be honest, I do not have a need for pockets in a vest, my tackle bag contains the gear i need on the water. A water proof key bag hangs on a rope inside my shirt, and my shirt pocket has my phone in it and it is not difficult to get out from under the vest.


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## dru

roge said:


> Tonystott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kayaks with pedals are not affected by bulky PFDs.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen brother.
Click to expand...

The attitude among some Hobie pedalers that the paddle has no importance to them leads in itself to certain safety retraints. You are commended to train for it and to use it when the conditions makes this sensible. (Largely to assist steerage/direction when the rudder starts becoming less effective.) Anything you wear or attach to the yak that interferes with a paddle is a potential problem. Even on a Hobie.


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## Wedge

Wedge said:


> I appreciate that there is a reasonable following for the Ultra Trek but after quite a bit of consideration I'm leaning to a "Stormy Lite" Inflatable 100N PFD 1. Good safety colours, plenty of pockets, leash attachment and centre zip.
> 
> Does anyone out there (including tonystott) have one and can give me the pro's and con's or suggest one that is equivalent or better - and why? From the prices I have seen they are about $179.00 retail, if anyone can lead me to a better deal in Victoria, I'm all ears.
> 
> Cheers
> Wedge :-D :-D


Following on from my last post and having several private conversations with kayakone, I have changed my mind and intend looking seriously at a Ultra Pinnacle Series II PFD. It is a PFD 2, centre zip, good saf ety colour, plenty of pockets, leash attachment, radio pocket and a bladder. I have not seen one in the flesh yet but it looks comfortable and seems to tick all my boxes. Just need to find a dealer in Victoria/Melbourne that stocks them.

Cheers
Wedge


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## Wedge

Hi all; I have bitten the bullet. I picked up an Ultra Pinnacle Series II L50 in Melbourne yesterday 28.10.2013. Looks the goods, is very comfortable and takes a bladder. They come in Red & Yellow; I picked yellow for safety.

Cheers
Wedge


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## Phoenix

The pinnacle II is a great PFD - it's what I use.


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