# SWR, I Survived A Head With A 38m Flybridge,



## spottymac

I am the luckiest man alive, after being run down by a 38m Mariner Flybridge doing over 20 knots on its way from Sydney to the Gold Coast on Friday at SWR, 
We had just finished watching Couta hook up on a good size fish at about 1km out from the Jail House, we were on the way back in from out wide.
Grant pointed out to me a boat approaching on my left from the south,
We turned to left to run parallel to it thinking there would be plenty of room between us 
Grant Ashwell was 20m behind me and Steven [Couta] was another 20m behind Grant, 
When It was about 100m out from us we new it was traveling very fast and a lot closer that we would have liked, but still room to miss us by about 30m and of course he would see us and turn away any minute now, 
Then all of a sudden it turned in on me it was only 30m away at this stage, 
Holy Shit this thing is coming straight for me,
I could see the skipper in the Flybridge with his head down he didn't see us,
Grant was yelling from behind look out he can't see us,
Then it dawned on me I was going to die any seconds now,
Then just before the impact I rolled to the left out of the Kayak, it was instinct, 
We hit head on,
I could feel myself shoot straight under the boat thinking the props are going to get me any second now, then bang It was like I was in a big washing machine and then I popped up, 
The first thing I did was looked down to see if I was all there, I couldn't believe my luck
I looked over to see my yak which had a big holes carved in it from the prop but was still floating at one end so hung on until they picked me up,
The skipper offered me a change of cloths, food, water, beer,he was still a bit stunned with what had happened,
He said the boat was on autopilot and the boat will turn from side to side in a bit of swell, 
It was like playing Russian Roulette which way was it going to turn, 
They dropped me and the yak off at the nearest port which was Coffs Harbour, 2 hours away, 
Clive, Steven and Dan were kind enough to drive there to pick me up and head back to camp, Thank Guys,
Grant told me later that he was only 2m from going under him self before the boat stopped, 
I want to thank Josh [Yakabbout] for helping out with a Red Hobie Adventure to get me out on the water again,


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## spottymac

Thanks Gra , so am I


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## ausbass

I heard rumblings of such an event on other sites, but to hear it from the person.

You are one lucky bugger Stu, so good to hear you came out somewhat unscathed besides the obvious loss of your kayak.


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## Shorty

First a trawler writes off a yak then this,,,2 in a week,,someones gunna die soon


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## simond11

Stu, glad you are alive, mate. You couldn't have had better people around you and supporting you.
To the rest of us...now is the time to carefully think what safety equipment we carry with us. We never think it will happen to us, but this incident proves otherwise. I think we have to start thinking along the lines that "if something is going to happen, then it probably will". 
Let's all make sure we have the right equipment to avoid this happening again to any of us.
Very close call.....very close   
Cheers


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## danfish

Thats pretty bloody scary! Boats shouldnt have autopilot! :lol:

Glad to hear you're alright. Sorry to hear you lost your yak, them props make a bit of a mess of the hull. Good on Josh for helpin with the Adventure.

Take it easy out there everyone!

Dan


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## Feral

I hope you were straight on to the water police and the nearest harbour master.


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## Rstanek

What an idiot, you'd think he'd have the sense to turn autopilot off coming in to an area with as much boat traffic as SWR :? ... Glad you're ok.


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## yakfly

Good to see youre OK Stu
Did no one have a radio to try and contact the skipper to alert him of your presence?


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## sbd

Boats, perfect transport for blind people. What the hell is it that people can not keep watch where their instrument of death is heading? If you did this on the road, you'd never be allowed to drive again. Good result for staying alive Stu.

Probably a ferry pilot on a busman's holiday.


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## grinner

unbelievable but unfortunately believable.

in qld it is THE LAW that all incidents , even minor have to be reported to marine safety queensland who then investigate.they have a form available on their website. dont know about NSW

looking at that kayak , this is far from minor.

very lucky boy, must have much good karma.

hopefully your anchor rope fouled his prop and blew his engine up.

pete


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## spooled1

This freak turn of events could have turned out very differently. You fellas did everything right and still came millimetres from death. Glad you're OK Stu and it was good to see you jump back on the yak. In terms of amazing good fortune, this year at SWR really delivered.

Also, Thanks heaps to Josh (yak.a.ss) for confirming and arranging the loan Hobie Adventure for Stu at such short notice. He ran through absolute hoops to get a loan yak for Stu and ensured this was confirmed by the time I got to Coffs to help lift Stu's spirits. Cheers Josh, I really appreciate what you did. ;-)


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## Guest

:shock:

Glad your ok Stu, hope the skipper can reach into his obviously very deep pockets and replace your boat, at the least.


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## Davey G

Heard about this last night, and first reaction was 'how the hell did you not get sliced to pieces?". I'm so glad you are OK.

Its worrying to think that you guys saw the boat coming yet it swerved to hit you. Perhaps they were japanese whalers on holidays and mistook you for anti whaling boats? ;-) :shock: :? :lol: :twisted:

After the initial shock is over I'd ensure that you report this to the relevant authorities (NSW MAritime and also local SWR police) - I'm assuming you got the boat owners details? A freak (but totally preventable) accident for sure, but something that should have never happened, and the driver of that boat needs to be held fully accountable, as 6 inches to the left or ight and you'd be dead. As a last resort and if no action gets taken, contact the media and show them your mangled yak - that'll get their attention.

From where you were sitting (directly in the firing line) i bet you had a few 'holy shit' moments...

Again, so glad you are OK. let us (AKFF mods/admin) know if we can assist with anything


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## ELM

Now that was close, glad that you appear to be physically ok Stu, Grant and Steven, shaken, not stirred.

For your own sake, both now and for the future, I hope you have had yourself checked out medically, and reported the incident to the police and marine safety, this is serious and needs further investigation. There is no way that any mode of powered transport either on or off the water should have an auto pilot that will allow the operator to not be in control and watching where that machine is going.

It is moments like this, that drives the nail home as to just how vulnerable we are out there on the water and just how important the right safety equipment really is. As much as I hate rules and regulation, I often think that as the popularity grows in this sport so do the dangers, yet we have no national or state body to help self control a national set of regulations and safety training schemes, better us who understand than the bureaucrats that do not, make the rules, and also start a national campaign to help boat/jetski owners understand we are out there as well and not always easy to see.

I would also like to thank Josh Yakass for his prompt selfless act in obtaining a kayak for you, and the people who supplied it, a very kind act on your behalf and a sign of decency and humanity (shame how we lose active knowledgeable members like that)







my friend.

Anyway I have rambled enough, glad you guys are in one piece (even if the kayak isn't) and stay safe on the water my brothers and sisters.


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## Dodge

Stu just read of your SWR encounter and glad it all turned out OK for yourself mate even if the yak suffered.



Davey G said:


> Its worrying to think that you guys saw the boat coming yet it swerved to hit you.


Dave when a boat is on auto pilot it constantly alters course as it is hit by waves etc to just holds an average heading and perhaps that is the cause of change in heading.

Trawlers often travel on auto with all the crew asleep :shock:


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## justcrusin

Scary stuff, really glad your ok spottymac. I think the others have said it all but good to have you in one piece.

Cheers Dave


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## andybear

Good grief!

Good job you rolled out. If that happened to me, I think my aversion to getting in the water would get me killed. "Sort of like choosing whether or not to use a parachute, when you are only at 150ft." :shock:

Glad you are not hurt. The yak looks ready for chopping up into pellets for making new yaks, not much good for anything else!

Cheers Andybear


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## Barrabundy

BLOODY HELL!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: Amazing you're around to tell the story. It sounded bad enough reading it but seeing the photo and imagining if that was your head..... :shock:


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## spottymac

Grant and Steven rang the Police in the first 5 min to report the incident, and the Maritime Water Police took a Statement and filled out a Vessel Incident report when we arrived at Coffs Harbour,
The skipper rang me to check on my well being on his arrival at the Gold Coast the next day,
I am meeting up with him today to arrange replacement of all damaged gear,
So all is Cool at this stage,
Thank you All for all your support and best wishes,
Thanks Josh again for all your support with the kayak, and my buddy's Steven, Dan, Clive, Garry and Tony who were all there on the trip with me,

At first I wasn't going to say to much in the media because of what has happened in South Australia, 
We don't want to be banded from fishing off shore in NSW OR QLD from kayaks, I love it to much,

But looking at the big picture this is a timely warning to have a good hard look at what other things we can do to avoid this happening again,
I can't Highlight enough high vis Flags and Clothes,which we did have on,
A VHF radio may have helped, but by the time we realized he could not see us it was to late,
You may think you can move out of the way but at that speed at close range it is imposable, 
Looking at it now we should not have changed our original course a direct line to shore and it would have passed behind us, The 3 of us are all experienced off shore fishermen and instinctively turned to the left to give plenty of clearance between us and the boat, it can be very deceiving at times,
Take care and don't take for granted the boat can see you,


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## paulb

That is one scary tale :shock: You are so very lucky to have escaped uninjured and thankfully your instincts were spot on. 
Buy yourself a lottery ticket or two.
I don't know if there is much you can do to make yourself more visible if the skipper isn't looking - but are boats with autopilots fitted with some sort of alarm or radar that picks up vessels ahead ? If that were the case, then maybe there's some electronic gadget that makes a small kayak, give off the electronic image of a much larger vessel ?

Hope you get over the shock and can continue to enjoy the fishing.


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## paddleparra

Stu, nothing to say mate but good on you for getting back out into the blue and again well done to the lads that supported your recovery and indeed return to the water. I used to be a believer in 'shit happens' but I am more of a believer in responsibility and ownership. The skipper needs to compensate you for your loss ( in the states hebwould also be compensating you for fear incurred etc which ia a whole lot more than just a yak & gear) as well as learn from what seems to be a huge mistake. Am keen to hear what resolution is reached. This bloody sensational hobbie seems to be becomming more of an extreeme sport as each day goes by. If I send you a couple of bucks would you buy a lotto ticket for me?

All the best.

Pp


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## Seadog

Your very luck Stu! must have had a guardian angel sitting on your shoulder mate!


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## dunebuggy

danfish said:


> Thats pretty bloody scary! Boats shouldnt have autopilot! :lol:
> 
> Glad to hear you're alright. Sorry to hear you lost your yak, them props make a bit of a mess of the hull. Good on Josh for helpin with the Adventure.
> 
> Take it easy out there everyone!
> 
> Dan


I would have to agree to disagree on that one Dan. I had autopilot on my 36 footer and it was great but, I used it more like a cruise control. I was always looking ahead. You can't afford not to. Fish traps, submerged shipping containers, longliner's set lines etc... . Most of the time I was far enough offshore to avoid kayakers. The fact that this guy wasn't looking where he was going is, in my opinion, sheer neglegence. He should be charged as such.


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## bazzoo

Stu just heard about it , thank God your OK mate , what a terrible thing to have to go through , gee i dont know what to say mate just shocked , so glad your alright


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## Rose

xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Biggles

Glad you're ok and still have all your dangly bits Stu, talk about out put the eeeeby jeeeebies up ya.

Al


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## Cuda

Mate, I can't imagine what must have been going through your mind as you went under that boat waiting for the prop/s to slice n dice. As per all other comments very glad to see you are ok and the errant boatie is going to come good on replacing the stuff you lost :shock:


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## ArWeTherYet

That's amazing you survived that :shock: . I know a lot of people who kayak fish that are afraid of being eaten by sharks, but I'm way more scared of boats especially ones with fly bridges. I've had a couple of instances where I've had to go out of my way or get run down by big 30 sumptin foot boats, where they havent even given me so much as a glance as they go by and leave my trying to negotiate there 1mtr wake......bastards. I just stay as far away as possible when I see's one now.

Glad your alright Stu, maybe its time to get a glass kayak, there easier to roll when you need to  .


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## sbd

I'd be claiming a full rack of Saltigas, a Lowrance HDS10 with Stucturescan and any other expensive toys you can think of.


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## craig51063

frk me

im glad u are ok mate . i think getting a new yak is litle compensation ... but what can u do .

craig


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## Sunhobie

That will be one hell of a warranty claim Stu!

Glad you escaped unscathed.

There is no solution to boaties who don't keep a proper lookout. A few years ago, one of our customers was run over by the Coastguard at full noise!!!!!!

I guess its still much safer than crossing the highway.


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## malhal

FFFFFFFFFFFaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk you are a very lucky man Stu. Makes my close call off Moon Island Swansea a few weeks ago seem only minor. Once again it was a kid at the wheel while dad stuffed around.
Boats just like cars can kill you stupid bastards. Sorry but this makes me angry when our lives are in danger doing something we love because of others poor attitudes.
Cheers Mal


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## ARK

Wow, very scary thing!

You can wear all the hi vis gear in the world, and it isn't going to help a bit if no one is keeping a look out. Thank goodness your all right.

As Dave said, just make sure he replaces that Adventure Island ;-) and all the rest of that very expensive, top of the range gear you lost.

Audrey


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## Drewboy

Alive to tell the tale...not even hurt, wow what an extraordinary experience.
So pleased to hear you are ok.
Don't think this thing has just psychologically passed you and discount the benefit of a full medical checkup.

Compensation in the form of a very visible red or yellow Adventure island is the least I would be holding out for Stu.


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## grumpyrider

In the Paris-Dakar desert races they used to have a radio device that warned slower vehicles when faster vehicles were approaching so they could get out of the way. And aircraft have proximity warning systems for the same reason, to avoid potentially life threatening situations.

Now I know something like this would be a(nother) piece of electronics to mount and power and maintain, and it would mean all other vessels would have to carry similar equipment for it to be effective, but what is a life worth?

And yes, I know we shouldn't have to go to that trouble, but incidents like this show we may have to ;-(

Having said all that, as a motobike rider I know that you could be wearing flashing lights and have a fog horn going and some bastards would still not see or hear you!

So just keep your eyes and ears open, because they are out to get you (no I am not paranoid, just experienced).

Steve


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## tahch3

Far out mate!! Thats a storie to tell the grandkids


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## butts

GDay Stu

Mate glad to hear you are OK. Shame about the yak though.
I hope you bought a couple of lottery tickets.

Butts...


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## keza

jeez Stu, that is some heavy shit.
Glad you are ok.

The driver is probably just as shaken as you by the sound of it.
What gear did you lose ?
I would guess that impact would break most of your tethers.

Me thinks one of those horns on a can could be on my purchase list.
I have thought about this before when i have seen boats coming towards me and i can't see the driver. It is so hard to figure out which way they are going.


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## Southerly

keza said:


> Me thinks one of those horns on a can could be on my purchase list.
> I have thought about this before when i have seen boats coming towards me and i can't see the driver. It is so hard to figure out which way they are going.


Hi Keza,

After a close call on Sydney harbour a few years ago thanks to a pleasure cruiser, I now carry a loud whistle (Fox40) these things are used in mountain rescue and shrill as anything, I considered the porstable airhorn but as I had a whistle already I have carried that. Have not needed to use it yet so can;t say how effective it is. Still pissed I can't use a slingshot.

Waving my paddle covered in reflectors did the trick on the harbour, maybe I was lucky the guy just looked up.

PS: That is a very scary story, no injuries is a miracle.

David


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## snapperz

HOLY SHIT mate :shock: :shock: :shock: .I can't believe this.You are a very lucky man.Very glad to hear you are O.K.Be careful out there everyone.


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## Macbrand

This is a story for that show on Foxtel called "I Survived".

Thank God you are ok.


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## Barrabundy

grumpyrider said:


> In the Paris-Dakar desert races they used to have a radio device that warned slower vehicles when faster vehicles were approaching so they could get out of the way. And aircraft have proximity warning systems for the same reason, to avoid potentially life threatening situations.
> 
> Now I know something like this would be a(nother) piece of electronics to mount and power and maintain, and it would mean all other vessels would have to carry similar equipment for it to be effective, but what is a life worth?


We have similar alert devices in our vehicles up here (EValert) which go off when a train is within 500m, problem is they are very erratic, some are accidently diabled/damaged/facing the wrong way etc. If you're relying on the alert as your only warning (which we don't because trains are only found on tracks) you probably wouldn't be much better off. As you've suggested it would have to be a case of "one in all in"to be effective....and then there's the cost.


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## AndyC

As others have said, really glad to know that you are OK. And its always heartwarming to read the good stuff, like mates looking after you and Josh's kindness. What really bothers me though, is the mentality that I think I read between the lines of some posts that hints at "see what you can get out of this".

Seems to me, the skipper of that boat is guilty of negligence and endangering life and, as such, he deserves to answer to the law for that. I'm sure that any maritime regulations would require that any craft maintain a proper lookout at all times, when its underway.

I reckon the guy should also have to compensate you fully, for any gear that you lost and, had you been injured, any medical expenses as well. But the airy fairy bullshit that the lawyers get into in the courts is what gives me the runs in our society. So-called 'compensation' for getting a bad fright? Gees, we are going to sea in a 13 foot piece of plastic and placing ourselves in harm's way. Everyone acknowledges the impossibility of totally avoiding danger and we all know just how hard a yak is to spot, no matter what hi-vis measures we might take. So a few horrible experiences and even an occasional disaster seem inevitable, with so many of us out there on any given day.

Seems to me too, the driver of that boat might have been guilty of making an error of judgement. In this case, it was one where a dangerous situation actually arose. But how many of us has never made an error of judgement that could have resulted in real disaster .... but were spared from the consequences by a bit of good fortune? The poor bugger might himself be suffering nightmares and anxiety over the incident.

Like I said, I'm so glad that the outcome wasn't worse but it'd be a wonderful thing if some compassion and maybe a little forgiveness could be shown to the villain in this piece. He's probably an alright bloke just like the rest of us. Has anyone wondered if he is alright, after this incident?

Cheers All,

AndyC


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## sbd

AndyC said:


> Like I said, I'm so glad that the outcome wasn't worse but it'd be a wonderful thing if some compassion and maybe a little forgiveness could be shown to the villain in this piece. He's probably an alright bloke just like the rest of us. Has anyone wondered if he is alright, after this incident?


No.


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## andybear

Hi,

Well said, AndyC.

There would be many people who, as a result of doing their incompetent" best" and without malice, have ruined lives. The sliding scale of negligence is enormously long.

I hope this captain learns to keep proper lookout at all times, and that he in turn is active in giving good counsel to his other friends with large vessels.

Most important however that our buddy is safe!

Cheers all Andybear


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## keza

AndyC, 
it sounds to me like Stu has dealt with this very well and has a good handle on the situation.
The guy has spoken to him since and i'm sure they have a good understanding of how each other feel about what happened.
I haven't picked up on any animosity between them, which is a great result.

I think you have to take some of what you read as a bit tongue in cheek.


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## Donutslayer

Hard man///
I am buying an air blast horn TODAY.


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## wopfish

Yeah I agree - I reckon for fishing in busy waters - or some of these events off shore with other water craft an air horn must be a good choice - I think Whitworths would sell something like that - a small canned one - another thing to strap to your pfd - I am very very glad to hear that your safe and sound and you had balls of titanium to go back out the next day on the water........ cant believe the state of the yak..... like a plastic toy smashed up.........

PS what happened with the trawler


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## craig51063

Hmmmmm i better rephrase what i meant .....

i would be wanting more DONE than just getting my kayak replaced . it look likes the driver of the boat is genuenly apolagetic which is a good thing .hopefully some sort of good will come out of this incident . ie for boat drivers to always be aware and do not get complacent just because atomatic pilot is switched on .

which leads me to a question .... i thought automatic pilot would have a radar type setup to warn of on comming structures [ boats , rocks , containers ] .espeacialy on such a large boat .

or am i just dreaming .

again i am glad no one got seriously hurt .

craig


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## spooled1

I'm pretty certain this event and the "trawler" were one and the same. It was possibly a misunderstanding based on the very first conversation I had with Josh when I requested a loan adventure for Stu. The news was literally minutes old and was possibly an interpretation of the use of game boat.


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## mrwalker

Incredible tale, glad the outcome wasn't worse! Nothing can be taken for granted at sea, certainly not your visibility to others. I have had a close call with a big flybridge game boat and I was on a 40ft sailing cat, with all sail set. They head up and down the coast, intent on a new fishing ground,meeting a charter obligation, or getting to the next boatshow and caution and due care can go out the porthole! I havent kayak fished offshore in any sort of swell but I can guess that we would be very hard to see if there was a good roll on. On a yacht doing 6 knots on autopilot you can have a good look around every five minutes or so, but on a flybridge doing 20 knots or more a permanent lookout should be kept, especially that close to shore. Stu is a very lucky man and this incident should make us all the more careful and safety concious. Cheers, Dave.


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## wopfish

I'm sure none of us need reminding but................. a yak in the ocean with a bit of swell must get so lost in comparison to some one travelling at speed on a boat..... and I should imagine that boaties perceptions of the ocean is that in general its an empty and desolute space unless you see another boat..... some boaties probably have no perception or experience of encountering kayaks off shore. I do not know the details of what happened here - I talk in general terms.... and I'm not making excuses for the skipper...... but as what we do is increasing and our range of yakking off shore broadens then I'm hoping theres a way to educate boaties above and beyond this negative collisiosn. I hope we dont get banned from paddling off shore and my suggestion is perhaps that we have a good think of the bare minimum requiremnts one should take with them before undertaking off shore fishing. The more I think of it an air horn makes good sense !


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## dru

Stu

Dont know what to say - bloody glad you are all right. Buy a lotto ticket though.


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## spottymac

I am glad to say the skipper has been really good about things, 
Two reels and a rod are being repaired and 80% of the other gear has been replaced so far and just waiting for a few things like F/F, GPS,
I still have the gps but it has stopped working and I can't retrieve my gps marks, it copped a flogging and has water in it,
Dose any one know if there is a way of retrieving the marks,

I am not after compensation for stress and other issues, I am just so glad to be alive and be here to spend time with my family,

Life is good

Cheers


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## ArWeTherYet

Just send it to me Stu and I'll look after your marks ;-) :lol: .

If it will still power up you could get the cable and software to transfer the marks to a computer and then back onto a new GPS. I smashed the screen on mine and was able to get the marks back. If it wont power up I dont know if you can. I always store mine on the computer just in case I get run over by a 38' boat  .


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## spottymac

Ha Ha Silly me, I SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT,


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## gummyshark

glad to see your ok stu, sure is a scarry looking photo of your yak.
geez u were so close yourself, sure is great to have good yak mates stu.
clive, steven, dan, and a yak mate josh well done guys
take care stu gummyshark/norm


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## yaker

.


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## spottymac

The Fog Horn sounds like a good idea, Tony
Its about the only thing that might get the skipper to look up.


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## avayak

OMG,
so much for the skipper keeping a proper lookout!
So glad you came out alive. That damage to your yak is horrifying.


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## spottymac

Talking to the skipper he said the boat would change direction up to 50 m off the plotted line in certain types of swell, 
The Marine Police officer at Coffs Harbour backed this up by say in that section of coast line along the SWR coast was bad for this and when they are traveling through the area they turn the auto pilot off for a smother ride,
I have discovered the boat was not equipped with a radar, 
Would a radar have helped point us out on the screen,


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## matcoburn

perhaps not in the swell at SWRs. 
Stu, could a drysuit or life jacket make it difficult to get under the water deep enough to avoid contact with the prop?


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## zipper

shit literally hit the fan, not cool. glad to hear everyone is ok and the skipper has been good about it, i can imagine he would be pretty shaken up by this incident as well. hope everything turns out to be alright. i bet you are appreciating everything a lot more now.

cheers
glad you are alright.


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## ELM

Matt, I have snorkeled in mine, just the drysuit alone makes it almost impossible to duck dive, (without a weight belt) you may get your torso down but you cant get your legs below the surface as all the air trapped inside the suit moves to the legs as you try to dive, put a buoyancy vest on and I doubt you would even get your torso down.


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## Tarkman

Scary shyte!

I carry a horn, but a 38m Flybridge probably wouldn't hear your horn with that motor pushing it through the water at 20kts.

Boats with AutoPilot, do they usually have Radar? Would a yak even appear on a radar? Is there something we can carry that can alert the driver. I like the idea of a radio.

Who has a portable waterproof VHF?

I know some sailing boats have autopilot too, but they don't go so fast so you may be able to get out of the way in time.


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## spottymac

I have a fair idea what saved my life,
I rolled out of the kayak just before impact and I ended up under the up turned kayak which helped separate me from the boat hull, 
There are some big black marks running from the nose down to the back on the under side of the yak which show the yak slowly turned sideways to the point of impact with the prop which slashed across the back half,
I may have ended up out to the side under the front of the yak,
The black mark are scratched quite deep in the kayak, 
I could feel myself bumping along under something, the life jacket would have been pushing me up,
If I was in contact with the hull I would have ended up with deep cut and black marks on me,
I didn't have a scratch,
I hope I am not boring you all with this,
I do have pics of the black marks if you want to see then, 
I would like your opinion, I could be away off the mark,
Clive has put together a short video together would you like to see it,


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## yaker

.


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## spottymac

Very well said Tony
Sound is properly the only thing that would get them to look up,
How fast can sound travel,


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## RedPhoenix

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

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----------



## DougOut

spottymac said:


> I do have pics of the black marks if you want to see then,
> I would like your opinion, I could be away off the mark,


 the black marks on your yak are from the boat's anti-fouling paint (applied below the boats water-line ) scuffs off pretty easily with this type of impact/contact .
Bloody lucky mate (unlucky, it happened ) .... that type of cruiser has "TWO" engines, 
therefore Two props and two rudders, even a strike/blow from one of the rudders would have been game over. :shock:


----------



## craig51063

spottymac 
i dont think u are boring everyone . we are all glad u survived and we are all quite amazed & shocked at the whole incedent . [ i am anyway ]

kraley

he would not have been charged with murder [ no intent ] but probably ... wreckless driving ocasioning injury or death .[ like manslaughter ] very very serious shit .

im telling u it sending shivers up my spine .

craig


----------



## keza

keep it coming Stu, the more we discuss this the better.
Di the boat go over the front or back of your yak ?
(Just trying to get the picture)

I think the flag is a must, the horn sounds like a good idea.
I'm wondering if a device like a small mirror ball attached to the top of the flag would be a good idea. If the sun was out, it should send flashes but not much cop in overcast.

maybe a laser pointer for the eyes, if that doesn't work attach the laser pointer to the scope on your rifle


----------



## wopfish

I have an answer ( not The perhaps ) !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVn7YEKn ... re=related


----------



## bazzoo

I'm afraid there is no real answer to this , as a skipper who has his vessal on autopilot and dosnt keep a watch is an accident thats waiting to happen and theres nothing you can do with such people . we just have to be very vigalent and assume that every power boat is waiting to hit us . Spotty , quick thinking mate , your quick mind has saved your life theres no doubt about that and nothing more could have been done . so glad we still have you with us mate


----------



## Shorty

wopfish said:


> I have an answer ( not The perhaps ) !
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVn7YEKn ... re=related


I can see air horns becoming standard on kayaks in the near future, don't take up much room and are probally the only real answer in some cases,,louder the better .


----------



## spottymac

As you can see from the marks they start from the nose on the under side and as it progress to the back it turns side ways, 
I did aim down the left hand side at the last min and rolled out of the kayak as I have said before, this may means I have been under the front half of the yak which has pushed the nose out to the left and the back has swung around under the prop,

Make your own judgment, I would love to here your comments,


----------



## Cuda

It would have been a brown trouser moment for me Stu, I can say that :shock: Going by the damage to the stern end of the kayak, I wouldn't have liked your chances if it had been you that copped the prop 8)


----------



## couta1

watching that incident unfold while being a few metres behind was like watching a bad horror movie!!!!..i heard the scream as he went under...when the 000 operator said do u want an ambulance as i paddled over...i expected just to lift i decapatated head out of the water and was relieved to say no just the police please..it was just unbelievable...the whole freakin ocean and it has to hit you...it was a 33% chance...you me or grant


----------



## paulb

Incredibly lucky - I don't think there is anything else that could have been done in those final seconds, especially given the unexpected lsat second change of course the boat took.

I wonder if we were to use a VHF radio when we see a boat approaching 500m or so away, to 'alert' the skipper as to the presence of small vessels. Probably not practical in busy waterways as you'd be forever on the radio..... but maybe out on more open waterways ? Assuming the skipper is at least awake, which may not always be the case.


----------



## fishsmith

Its one amazing survival story Stu, are you going to keep the Hull. It would make a great training aid for boating safety education, also a great story for the grand kids in the future.


----------



## spottymac

> I'm afraid there is no real answer to this , as a skipper who has his vessal on autopilot and dosnt keep a watch is an accident thats waiting to happen and theres nothing you can do with such people . we just have to be very vigalent and assume that every power boat is waiting to hit us . Spotty , quick thinking mate , your quick mind has saved your life theres no doubt about that and nothing more could have been done . so glad we still have you with us mate


Hi Barry I agree with you, there is no real answer we have to be so vigalent and assume all boats can't see us,
That has been burnt in to my brain I can assure you,
I know the skipper has made a mistake but put yourself in his shoes a two day trip in open waters with bugger all out there and to keep your eyes on the lookout for 100% of the time is going to be hard, 
They should [maybe] ban Autopilot on boats its to easy to take your eye off the ball,

In a car you don't have the room to do this I know we have all driven a car to far at times with your consecration dropping off for a second or two, this happens every day of the year all over Australia with someone getting killed or injured,

It reminds me of the two pilot in the USA who over shot there landing by 2 hours if I recall correctly, They said they were talking and lost track of time, 
God help anyone in a hot air balloon,

I can't thank the skipper enough,
He has done everything possible to get thing back on track again,


----------



## spottymac

> I wonder if we were to use a VHF radio when we see a boat approaching 500m or so away, to 'alert' the skipper as to the presence of small vessels. Probably not practical in busy waterways as you'd be forever on the radio..... but maybe out on more open waterways ? Assuming the skipper is at least awake, which may not always be the case.


This is another good option,
What time frame do you think it would take to contact the skipper on VHF,


----------



## Tarkman

Hey, Stu, you mentioned that the live-vest was (ofcourse) pulling you up to the surface.

I think you might have been very lucky there, I think you rolled at the right time and managed to keep the yak above you. There might be a lesson for us all in this because we can't quickly take off our vests and rolling and holding the yak directly above us might be the right thing to do?

Not trying to be funny or anything, but maybe this maneuver can be called the "Stu-Roll".

Guys I also own a stink boat (albeit a small one) and I also am lucky enough to go sailing on a 40ft Bavaria every week. I am always trying to make eye contact with every boatie that is out there, be it sail boat or stink boat or even kayak. Unless I know they have seen me, I don't assume that they won't collide with me.


----------



## HiRAEdd

That whole story sends shivers down my spine. I hope that skipper is charged as that was no accident, it was a collision caused by negligence.

I'll be getting a portable air horn along with the safety flag I'd already planned on adding.


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## paulthetaffy

VHF may help but it depends largely on the speed of the boat. At 20 knots he's covering around 10 metres a second so at 500m away you've got less than a minute to make contact and for him to slow down, find you, and evade.

The simple truth is that if the skipper isn't looking out / listening to his radio / alert to air horns then there's nothing that we can do to avoid a collision as we don't have the speed to get out of their path.

What we need is some sort of emergency rocket propulsion system that can give us a quick blast of thrust to get us out of the way. Or maybe an eject seat that will shoot us up over the flybridge like KITT had 

Seriously tho Stu, glad to hear you survived to tell the tale - that was one lucky escape! Hope it doesn't knock your confidence with getting back out on the water now.

Paul


----------



## FishWhisperer

A nice warm flare sitting in his lap would have alerted him to your presence.....I know your supposed to shoot flares straight up in the air but surely there are exceptons like this one......I would have fired one accross the bow, they cover a fair distance from the original firing point...(If I had carried them mind you)

Lucky escape Stu.....Off to the newsagent for you....I'd buy tattslotto and powerball tickets and maybe a few scratchies.

FW


----------



## DougOut

my 2 cents.
a VHF radio call-out, in that type of circumstance would be all but useless:
1/ you have no idea what channel/s he is monitoring
2/ you have no idea what his call-sign or vessels name is
3/ you would have every boats-skipper with a 10 mile (or more) radius jumping out of their skin, thinking he's about to kill someone.
*a good quality air-horn *is the most practical warning devise to help prevent this type of incident.


----------



## spottymac

Thanks DougOut thought that might be the case,


----------



## Tarkman

DougOut said:


> my 2 cents.
> a VHF radio call-out, in that type of circumstance would be all but useless:
> 1/ you have no idea what channel/s he is monitoring
> 2/ you have no idea what his call-sign or vessels name is
> 3/ you would have every boats-skipper with a 10 mile (or more) radius jumping out of their skin, thinking he's about to kill someone.
> *a good quality air-horn *is the most practical warning devise to help prevent this type of incident.


1. He should be monitoring Channel 16 , or 13 for the weather updates.
2. "48 foot cruiser about to run me over" is enough of a call sign I would say.
3. This might have been handy should the circumstances not have been so lucky.

I agree that the airhorn is probably the best thing, but a VHF radio is always a good idea if you are outside.


----------



## Bart70

Tarkman said:


> 1. He should be monitoring Channel 16 , or 13 for the weather updates.


At least a air horn may have been audible where he was located - and hopefully sound a little like the another boat honking which should alert his attention.

No substitute for a skipper keeping proper lookout though - when so close to the shore in an area that is well known for fishing craft of all types and sizes.

Bart70


----------



## shortie

could of tried to shoot a flare into his windscreen.


----------



## spottymac

The skipper was was sitting up in the bridge at the controls and was plotting a course to Coff for fuel, he said this would not have been any more than 30 seconds from looking up for any boat in his path, 
We may have been in a bit of a gutter between the swells, I don't know, but I am SAFE AND WELL which is the main thing,
He said he was on channel 16 and would have picked up call straight away,
The lesson learned is don't think they have seen you,
Always have a vhf radio and let them know you are in there path before it is to late,


----------



## DougOut

Tarkman said:


> 1. He should be monitoring


 yeah he *should* be ..... never assume the obvious my friend, that practise can be very dangerous.



Tarkman said:


> 2. is enough of a call sign I would say.


 Nope, can't agree .... not even close to being enough call sign.



Tarkman said:


> 3. This might


 mean-while he's on top of you, while your attempting to attract his attention with a VHF call that has sooooo many if's and maybe's as to reaching the skipper of your intention and *urgent* need.



Tarkman said:


> I agree that the airhorn is probably the best thing, but a VHF radio is always a good idea if you are outside.


*Your right Tarkman* ... the air-horn is the best thing, 
for this type of incident and I agree it is wise to carry a VHF while on your yak in popular waterways (outside or in.)

However, Best give him a Blast with your airhorn before you start fumbling around with an ill-informed VHF call.
again my 2 cents ..... over and * out*.


----------



## wopfish

Stu you have been very stoic and campassionate with regards your accident - It does seem that the skipper was really doing probably what any of us would do if we were in charge of that boat.... I think the lesson learnt is that doesnt matter whos write or wrong - what matters is though we in general suffer massively from a low visibility issue in the ocean and peoples attitudes on the ocean generaly think of it as a wide open space. We will always come out second best in a case like this ! We have to be pro active in this area - we might be in the right but could be in a whole heap of shit if we dont prepare our craft and minds to the worse case scenarios.


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## varp

Gawd almighty Stu!!!

What a crap day, but at least a favourable outcome....not the least of which has been the way it has highlighted stacks of discussion. I've had close encounters, but have never really considered (other than a flag) any of the scenarios that have been aired here.

...so some good has come of it. Have always appreciated your input here...long may it continue.

Best wishes
Ross

P.S Partner says trauma can have strange, unexpected and deep neurological impact. Talking is the best medicine.


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## Bart70

spottymac said:


> The skipper was was sitting up in the bridge at the controls and was plotting a course to Coff for fuel, he said this would not have been any more than 30 seconds from looking up for any boat in his path,,


Apologies Stu - I have removed the incorrect information in my earlier post. Happy to stand corrected.

Bart70


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## RedPhoenix

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

QlpoOTFBWSZTWfiyhHEAABJfgAAQQKXoUgCQ2AouZ96wIABgaqbTwkmjag9NNR5T1DNNDBpo00wmJkwEDTHkwfF/o2US1nWrH3b/RCkICM2eh4yLyNJaJJi4EwP75SgLxuE1t+qJpReo2B0da8HtcHOHTHE7HGtsCbyaFNqCxqSJwLuSKcKEh8WUI4g=


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## Cuda

Now that would put a smile on Stu's dial  Good outcome that ;-)


----------



## spottymac

Yes it did and I was back out there today,
Steven [Couta] had a play on it today and Clive [Safa] was on it yesterday,
Its easy to get up to 10 kpa and its a lot of fun,


----------



## spottymac

Red It was just a bit of good timing bumping into you guys out there, and thanks for the help on the fishing rod set ups, 
See you all out on the water soon,


----------



## Paul00

I have looked at that picture of the shredded yak for ages an can't beliveve someone got out of it alive, like someone posted earlier I have a real dislike of getting out of my kayak but I'm just Hoping that natural survival instincts would kick in an I would to whatever was needed to live....luck I'm sure had a huge part to play in you being alive to tell the story but also what you did in jumping an rolling have to be credited...

I bet that beer you had after tasted particulary good..


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## Sunhobie

On the flybridge of a twin diesel cruiser, an airhorn would never be heard.
Perhaps a handheld flare would draw attention. A heat seeking missile or RPG would be most effective.
I honestly think that Stu chose the best course of action by staying calm and trying to run out of the way. By the time he dug a radio, flare or anything else out of his pocket, he would have been run over.
A safety flag and bright coloured hull/clothing would be worthwhile investments. These boats need to see you from a distance, not try to avoid you at the last minute.
That being said, I know of two bright-coloured kayaks that were run over in the Broadwater on two different occasions.


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## phil79

holy shit!!


----------



## paulo

Good to see you survived and prospered Stu!! Welcome to the AI army. The challenge is to try and spend as much time fishing as you do sailing. Rapalas and Laser Pros are the HB lures Ive found that will handle more than 10kph. ;-) 8)


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## snapperz

I love the new yak especially the massive red and white safety flag you have installed. :lol: :lol: All jokes aside,glad to hear you are OK and back on the water,straight back on the horse so to speak.STAY SAFE EVERYONE.


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## yakyakfishfish

the first picture is that ur kayak? u cant tell what it is anymore ur lucky that wasn't you in the first pic


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## Zed

That's F'd up! So glad you are all alive and well. That is my worst fear on the water. Screw sharks; morons on auto is waaay worse. I hope some sort of lesson is learned by the boating community. I also hope the general kayak fishermen aren't penalized for the actions of some idiot. I also hope the idiot buys you a new kayak! I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread.

Best of luck,

Troy Z


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## scater

Zed said:


> I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread.


I have, over a year ago. Where's that thread necromancy picture gone?


----------



## Zed

lol
Well I didn't bump it, and missed it last year.
Omnipresence isn't my strong point.


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## Yak4ever

Glad you survived the head on and really great to see there are still good luck stories out there.

Has anybody tried those aerosol type air horns, it is a plastic trumpet looking thing on top of an aerosol can with compressed air, they are really loud so they may be heard over the noise of a boat motor.


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## eagle4031

maybe the airhorn needs to be added to the offshore equipment list


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## kayakone

Shorty said:


> First a trawler writes off a yak then this....2 in a week, someone's gunna die soon


Just read this thread. It's 10.10 am and I need a scotch, now. As if the ocean isn't dangerous enough with current, exposure, swells etc. The risk of collision on the water is rapidly increasing, and is a far greater risk than having a collision flying over a busy international airport.

My first reaction is a giant flag on a very long pole (every 30 cm gain in height increases the visibility by over one kilometre), and hi-vis clothing, but if the skipper's head is down none of that would have helped.



yaker said:


> The only other option we have is sound. Whether we are on a crest or in a trough we should be heard. All we can hope is that the boat skipper and crew then become alert. I've always carried a whistle, but adding the horn I'm hoping for a "what the hell was that" reaction -- all heads up, see where that came from. Get their attention. We're invisible unless they're looking for us, and they won't look for us unless we remind them.


A Fox 40 Sharkz (http://www.fox40world.com/index.cfm?DSP ... h=&id=4130) would probably have alerted him as it penetrates ambient noises. Some people also have hooters. This may be your only chance to say to the skipper "LOOK UP NOW! YOU ARE GUNNA HIT ME!"



spottymac said:


> Take care and don't take for granted the boat can see you





paulb said:


> ..... but are boats with autopilots fitted with some sort of alarm or radar that picks up vessels ahead ?





spottymac said:


> I have discovered the boat was not equipped with a radar.
> Would a radar have helped point us out on the screen?


Yes. The radar works especially well on aluminium, so a small light (1 mm) alloy plate should help with detection. This info came from a couple of boaties I've questioned previously. One had experience on large vessels and advised the alloy plate, saying it would enhance the radar return of a sea kayak in big seas. I am attempting to verify this info. There are also (large) radar return devices, and I'm trying to find a smaller one more suitable for a kayak.

When I wrote this viewtopic.php?f=9&t=50248&hilit=How+to+avoid+a+collision&start=15 
I had only just heard of this incident. Having read it now, it chills me, and reinforces the principles :

1. Wear highly visible clothing
2. Have a tall mast and a large orange flag
3. Carry a Fox 40 (Sharkz model is loudest), and/or an air horn
4. Carry and use marine VHF
5. Low light and night have a white all round light (again on a tall mast), and be able to signal with a powerful torch

Trevor


----------



## sbd

Don't go down to Fish Rock.


----------



## kayakone

sbd said:


> Don't go down to Fish Rock.


C'mon Dave. Tell me why not? (I can take a fair amount of teasing, having been in 'bad situations' several times).

It's a beautiful and alluring coastline ("wild and wooly" - as Grant said), and to me that's a red rag to a bull. If you are saying I went somewhere where I didn't have the capabities to get back under my own steam, _you are absolutely right_. Under the conditions, with the very strong current, the rapidly increasing headwind, and the relative inexperience with the capabitilities of the AI going upwind, next option was Hat Head. I offer no excuses. The lure of new places, new horizons, is irrestible to me, and probably will be till they take me away to a nursing home or worse.

I told the story so others can learn.

Cheers

Trevor


----------



## spork

Chilling stuff.
Lucky the OP lived to tell the tale.
Boat skipper was in the wrong, but I doubt he was doing anything that many other's don't do every day. 
I'd have set a new world record for the broad jump I reckon!
Even is small swell (the only kind I go out in) I have a Hi Vis flag on the butt of an old surf rod. A whistle on PFD. Any early morning stuff, or trips which may extend into the evening (when the better trout come out) I have an all round white light. I figure if it's dark enough to see a light it's too dark not to have one. (Unless your up a skinny bass creek thats inaccessible to power boats).

Maybe one of these horns would be the go. 
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Delta-Air-Zo ... 43ade34e41
Lots or serious cyclists (the ones who rely on their bike for everyday transport, not the lycra warrior ones) swear by them.


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## sbd

spork said:


> Boat skipper was in the wrong, but I doubt he was doing anything that many other's don't do every day.


Sadly this is true, doubtless a contributory factor to the last 500 years or so worth of figknuckles running into various parts of Australia. Until boats work out that they need to look where they're going, we, and every other water user including the skipper & his passengers, are in mortal danger.

Be seen, be heard (I carry a whistle and an airhorn), and when boats do the wrong thing, tell them loudly (assuming you survived the encounter).

Surely 99% of boat skippers also drive a car - do they read the paper on the freeway?

And don't go down to Fish Rock ;-) .


----------



## spork

Reminds me of the bloke who bought a new Winnebago. Turned on cruise control and wandered aft to make a cup of coffee...


----------



## GetSharkd

Wholy Shit ! :shock: So lucky, especially to not get diced up by the props.


----------



## Batron

Good to see this ended well no one hurt. just got my self two fox 40 Marine whistles from ebay . if any one is interested

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_...=Sharx+Marine+fox40&_sacat=See-All-Categories

2 x $15.98 to Australia.


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## kayakone

Investigating radar reflectors I found this
http://www.theradarreflectorsite.org/

Here are a couple of products that could be fitted to a kayak...
http://www.mobri.dk/ 
http://www.plastimo.com/catalogue/produ ... 9&LangID=1

I am making enquiries as to their suitability, particularly whether they would significantly improve the radar visibility of the yak.

Trevor


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## Beekeeper

Stu... you've provided all of us with one chilling thought... ie this could happen to any one of us.

Here's another thought... what if you'd been in a SIK? you don't just jump off one of them. The extra time it takes to remove yourself from a sit-in probably would have resulted in a funeral.

You were extremely unlucky to have this happen to you, but absolutely fortunate to come out of it without a scratch!

Both you and the boatie probably will have recurring nightmares from this incident... both from differing angles... yours from terror, and his from guilt. I wouldn't like either.

I have two SIKs, both the same... I fitted a flag on my latest one, and whilst it is having seating repairs, I use the old one... I felt absolutely unsafe without the flag, so immediately fitted one to it as well.

Even with the flag, a recent trip had me waving my paddle frantically as a tinnie bore down on me, and I knew he couldn't see me, as his bows were covering him from my sight. Instant relief came when he suddenly veered away.

I'm pleased to see that you're taking it all so well, Stu... you must be made of pretty stern stuff... lots of others would have chucked in the towel by now. Your mates must have been sickened by seeing that happen to you.

May your God go with you!

Jimbo


----------



## AJD

Stu - glad to hear physically you're well champ. gear can be replaced etc. not a person! Sh*t what a reminder to keep your wits about you out on the water. We are in small craft with a low horizon so we all need to keep an eye on the bigger guys out there.


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## Guest

In case anyone hadn't noticed, and not taking away from this at all as it's a timely reminder but... this happened in March 2010.


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## gbc

I know that this thread is old, but as someone who has sat on both side of the fence I can offer the following.

1. A radar reflector will most definitely improve your 'ping', as will an electronic racon, however:
2. 38ft game boat skippers do not as a rule monitor their radar during daylight hours as much as they would in low vis/night time. I wouldn't bother unless under way at night in a yak.
3. whistles/air horns etc are a hail mary at best. You don't hear much on the flybridge apart from turbos and wash.
4. ALL 38 ft game boat skippers scan VHF ALL the time - they are nosey buggers and want to know who's catching what. As the skipper said, a call on 16 would have done it - "Securite, securite, securite" gets attention quick. Most bigger boats have a couple of vhf's - one for emergency scans and one for general comms - they are both on all the time.
5. For daytime fishing I wouldn't think you could do any better than a cap with little pieces of mirror stuck to it (didn't MJ Fox have one in 'back to the future?) - Reflecting light is going to get everyone's attention. I'm not about to do it, but I'd think it'd work. All fishos notice reflections near the waterline - looks like fish chopping up.
6. The colour of your kayak would have to be your best chance for passive safety. I'm lucky enough to paddle a yellow scupper pro which can be seen from Mars.
7. As has been stated, the skipper is wrong in court all day but he wasn't doing anything anyone else wouldn't have done - just terrible luck (or great luck) on both parts.


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## gbc

Navigating a boat one up requires that that you check charts and make adjustments to instruments - that is normal behaviour, not ridiculous.

Watching a movie, reading the paper, playing soduku - inexcusable.


----------



## kayakone

Ken's right.

The order of responsibilities are:

1. Keep a proper lookout (always ensuring you do not endanger others)

2. Navigate

3. Communicate

Whilst engaged in #s 2 or 3, your responsibility to the safety of others is NOT diminished one iota*, just as it isn't on the road when you decide to change the radio station.

Much of our law is based on the principle of having regard for all other lives, at all times, regardless of their actions. For example, following distance on the road: "you must follow at a distance sufficient to stop (without hitting the vehicle you're following), REGARDLESS of the actions _of all other drivers_". So if you're following on a perfectly good flat country road with fields either side, perfect visibility, perfect weather, no animals, and the dude in front suddenly slams on his brakes, if you hit him, guess who is 100 % to blame?

Anyhow, so the skipper did the right thing, Stu got a new boat and gear, but does anyone know if he was charged?

Trevor

*The word 'iota' is used in a common English phrase, 'not one iota', meaning 'not the slightest amount', in reference to a phrase in the New Testament: "until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law" (Mathew 5:18)


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## kayakone

Further to enquiries re a radar reflector, I found this...
https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_item ... lutePage=1

Very small,inexpensive and light weight, and should be able to tie it to a safety flag mast quite easily, particularly if the mast is something like foam-filled 19 mm ID PVC. Thinking a couple of metres high.....

Trevor


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## gbc

You guys are funny. So in logging many thousands of sea miles you never took running fixes, put your head into a radar cover or scrolled through your GPS marks for the next waypoint? We both agree the skipper is in the wrong - as for the rest of it... I'll leave it at that.


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## HiRAEdd

I'm far from an experienced stink boat skipper but even I have to admit that when I was piloting a speed boat back in my teens, if I had to check charts or whatnot, I always reduced speed to account for the reduction of attention to my surroundings.

Just my two cents worth.


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## gbc

"He had his head down for thirty seconds"

Mate I entered this thread to try to help a couple of guys who haven't has as much sea time as some of us - to help them see their own safety from the perspective of a big boat making a coastal passage and maybe help out.

I don't need to be dragged into a pissing competition. For the fifth time - WE AGREE THE SKIPPER WAS IN THE WRONG.

Wrong or not, it is common practise for big boat drivers to look at instruments for periods of about 30 seconds. My comments were never about whether it is good seafaring practice, or that he was doing xxx MPH, its about the FACT that this skipper was doing what many boat skippers do when running single handed. Being forewarned of this could save kayakkers lives. You can have right of way all day, but in a kayak you'll have right of way and be dead (or almost dead).

I never said it was 'reasonable' to do it - I'm not passing judgement on anyone unlike others, but it is unfortunately reasonable to expect them to be doing it - stop twisting my words.

Whilst you're at it please point out where I "assumed" you don't know anything? The funny line was about the iota reference which I found to be *prima facie, funny. My apologies if my sense of humour offended.

*prima facie - legal reference from Greek root................ ;-)


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## MrX

Welcome to the forum gbc - where "no good deed goes unpunished" :lol:



> "I know that this thread is old, but as someone who has sat on both side of the fence I can offer the following.
> 
> 1. A radar reflector will most definitely improve your 'ping', as will an electronic racon, however:
> 2. 38ft game boat skippers do not as a rule monitor their radar during daylight hours as much as they would in low vis/night time. I wouldn't bother unless under way at night in a yak.
> 3. whistles/air horns etc are a hail mary at best. You don't hear much on the flybridge apart from turbos and wash.
> 4. ALL 38 ft game boat skippers scan VHF ALL the time - they are nosey buggers and want to know who's catching what. As the skipper said, a call on 16 would have done it - "Securite, securite, securite" gets attention quick. Most bigger boats have a couple of vhf's - one for emergency scans and one for general comms - they are both on all the time.
> 5. For daytime fishing I wouldn't think you could do any better than a cap with little pieces of mirror stuck to it (didn't MJ Fox have one in 'back to the future?) - Reflecting light is going to get everyone's attention. I'm not about to do it, but I'd think it'd work. All fishos notice reflections near the waterline - looks like fish chopping up.
> 6. The colour of your kayak would have to be your best chance for passive safety. I'm lucky enough to paddle a yellow scupper pro which can be seen from Mars.
> 7. As has been stated, the skipper is wrong in court all day but he wasn't doing anything anyone else wouldn't have done - just terrible luck (or great luck) on both parts."


All good points. Most flybridge skippers way out wide in the blue on autopilot will not expect to come across a "darn teensy toy kayak" bobbing around. They are on the lookout for boats. Failing to see a yak 6 miles away on the horison is no crime, but hitting it was negligent - and also terrible luck - long odds indeed.

This almost-catastrophic disaster highlights our biggest danger. We are not easy to see on the rolling ocean, we are not expected to be there, and one careless boatie can kill us. (just like one careless driver on the highway, fiddling with a mobile phone)



> "not as funny as some twit that assumes we don't know anything, apparently."


Some of us know everything on this forum ;-)


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## spork

"they think I know f*** nothing. I show them - I know f***all!"


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## gbc

Verry difficult to have a dialogue with someone who pays no attention to what is being said.

Sorry mate, I'm out. You just have way more goal posts at your disposal than I.

Glad it ended well for the Op.


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## MrX

> "I have logged thousands of miles of ocean sailing as a skipper. In all likelihood you won't have much to teach me about reading charts or looking at gizmos."


Ken, *you* slow down your boat each time you use your chart plotter or look at your gizmos while cruising on autopilot wide on the open ocean, and *you* can identify a kayak six miles away on the horizon, while traveling at 20 knots in rolling seas . *You* are a pretty darn good skipper, so we don't have to worry about *you* running us over.

When GBC said (at point 7): "[the skipper] wasn't doing anything anyone else wouldn't have done - just terrible luck (or great luck) on both parts", I don't think he was talking about *you*. I think he meant those skippers who are less accomplished than *you*. Intending to make a valid point about our safety/risks, not to provoke *you* into as pissing contest.

Besides:


> "Many boat skippers are dickheads that need to adjust their attitudes."


(Not you)


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## MrX

> "calm yourself and go back to read what I actually said. I said that if someone is keeping a proper watch there is plenty of time to do small tasks. Lazy skippers often use this excuse for why they get in trouble. A proper watch is the most important thing someone piloting a craft does."


Keep your hair on Ken - I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point - keeping a proper watch is very important. And I do read what you say.



> "I'm sorry if you don't believe that. Its kind of the basis of the whole thing. If the skipper of the boat in this case was indeed keeping a proper watch there is no way that his looking down for 30 seconds would have resulted in the accident."


Don't apologise - believe you. If the skipper of the boat in this case was indeed keeping a proper watch there would have been no accident, regardless of the "30 seconds" being bandied around.



> "He would have to have been neglecting his watch keeping duties for at least 18 minutes for the accident to have occurred."


Yep - neglect - but why 18 minutes?



> "again - look at what I really said. I showed that there is an areas of visibility that the skipper is responsible for. At man height - the horizon is 6 miles visible - so even if you are coming up on something small, you would have 18 minutes (at 20 knots) to identify it, realise your burden to make a clear course change and continue on safely."


I have not logged thousands of miles of ocean sailing as a skipper, so my experience is limited. But I would not expect the average skipper to see me from 6 miles away travelling at 20 knots on a rolling ocean. I struggle to see my fellow yakkers 500m away in front of the jail at SWR - just an occasional glimpse. Even from an elevated viewpoint on the cliffs it is difficult to make them out only a mile or so offshore - just tiny dots bobbing in and out of view.



> "The whole "we are small so we can't be seen argument' doesn't hold - skippers have to be aware of hazards to navigation that are much less visible than a kayaker (logs, whales - lots of things out there to hit) - and the same principle applies. And I don't think you have to worry about me running your over - but I also have found that most people that operate boats over a long period also take this responsibility seriously as well."


Fact: We are small, and very hard to see from a boat. Hence GBC's reminder: make yourself a visible as possible to minimise the risk of an accident. I think it's a valid point, well made.



> "This is the crux of our disagreement, I guess. I don't accept that it was unlucky. Its predictable that this skipper would have wound up hitting something/someone. Its not an unfortunate 'accident' - its the result of a disrespect for age-old principles that have been worked out over hundreds of years about how to navigate smalll things in big waters."


OK, fair enough. I think it was an unfortunate freak accident caused by plain old driver negligence, and Stu was damn unlucky to be hit (and lucky to escape unscathed). Let's agree to disagree.



> "The fact that someone thinks it is acceptable or 'everyone does it' astounds me."


Shit happens Ken - there is evidence of it on the roads every day, and sometimes people get run over, cars get smashed, and people hurt - even careful people like you. I don't think GBC is asserting that this type of thing is acceptable - he is acknowledging that it happens, so be prepared.



> "I never indicated that I thought he was talking about me - I indicated that his acceptance of this behaviour as a normal behaviour by skippers as a fait accompli is a sad commentary on the state of seamanship."


Yep - and GBC has already politely pointed out to you that you misinterpreted what he said, before you tried to piss all over him.



> "I may or may not be a dickhead, but that isn't really germane to the conversation here."


I said "not you", Ken. But GBC is new here, and he doesn't know you.


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## kayakone

Tonystott said:


> Well that thread got royally shafted didn't it! Frikkin egos


Well let's just say that misunderstandings arose. Some excellent points were raised, especially the ones I made. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, this sort of thing happens quite regularly on the forum, cause you are not talking (eyeballing) a person like you are in a conversation face to face. No facial expressions or body language to read, and a word or meaning misinterpreted, and suddenly a polite chat becomes a nuclear holocaust.

Don't think it will be the last time.

The great things brought out were to be as visible as possible (flag, clothing), and to be as loud as possible if in any danger (whistle, hooter, VHF).

Trevor


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## MrX

> "Well that thread got royally shafted didn't it! Frikkin egos"


I'm with you Tony - royally shafted by them germane egomaniacs!

Skyhooks had it all wrong:





(Except for Trevor - excellent points dude!)


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