# Leashing yourself to the yak



## dru

This topic came up during some of the recent safety discussions and again during the last safety day. Our coach, thought about it but the response was simply, "now that's worth thinking about." remember that we have been using sea kayak coaches (I still think that on balance its a better fit for us). Sea kayakers are already strapped into the kayak by the spray deck, so it's an irrelevant question to them. Perhaps surf life saving or ski instructors are going to be a better guide for this one. After much hunting and discarding a lot of "advice" that is available on the net, I found one I think we can trust.

http://www.surfski.info/getting-started ... --why.html

Please read it, but to match etiquette here let me outline.

1. Do not leash yourself to the yak in the surf zone.
2. Leash the paddle, but let it go if you are off in the surf zone (can snap).
3. Leash the paddle and everywhere else hang on to it!
4. Ankle leash to the yak is fine but definitely not in the surf zone.

Other thoughts: in Aus thigh leash seems to be the go. Possible problems in the surf zone are probably worse for us, if our yaks get full of water. You'll need to make your own assessment of another leash with line and rod leashes etc.


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## ArWeTherYet

What happens if a boat is about to run you down and you need to be able to jump free of your kayak?

What happens if you are fishing near a exposed rock or headland and a freak wave catches your kayak and you need to jump free?

Your best chance of survival is to have the skills to prevent yourself from falling out in winds and be able to get back in quickly. Most kayak fishermen dont have much in the way of theses skills and will rely on a bit of rope to save them not only potentially being inhibiting, but having a false sense of security. Honestly if you think they are so great go out and test it in a real situation.......your purely making assumptions.

Tell me Dru have you ever come off your kayak in open waters? I have and I can tell you the last thing I would want is to be tethered to my kayak.

Tether your one piece paddle (two piece can come apart if you tether the wrong end) and hang onto that or let go if needed.


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## dru

AWTY, I dont know why, but I thought this topic would hit emotion. One thing I am very happy to suggest is that when safety issues start getting emotional, nothing good comes from it.

"Tell me Dru have you ever come off your kayak in open waters?" Nope. Not in closed waters either. Or at least not when it wasn't deliberate. I put it down largely to my effort in training. 
"I have and I can tell you the last thing I would want is to be tethered to my kayak." I bow to your experience, which I don't diss at all. Still my primary concern would be staying with the yak.
"your purely making assumptions" *Ouch!*

But I don't think so. On the safety topic I am rarely other than studied and researched (and discussed with people I respect) before I post. I try to balance this input with my own thinking so it doesn't mean what I saying is gospel, just an interpretation. However here I have (honest) put the effort in before I post. Elsewhere I am lazy. Not here.

I welcome your input in what can be a vexed subject. And actually, where your input differs to mine this makes it more valuable. But do your experience a favour, let's take out the heat.


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## paffoh

Was the first question I asked some of the old schoolers back in 2006, should I tether myself to my kayak?

While there are pro and con the consensus was no, never, ever... Not required.

I tend to think that while loosing your kayak due to windage once capsized is a real threat the majority of users would rather know that they can exit via capsize without additional tangling hazards, given the paddle leash, rod leash, multiple onboard items etc. Perhaps it could and would be fesible if very minimal gear was taken onboard, or was on deck high so to speak. For instance if I was a sea kayaker paddling a decent SOT a few clicks out solo, just enjoying fitness I might employ one. However the topic is a bit like wearing waders in a kayak to me, has been proven acceptable and even promoted but alas I will never don a set.

However, might be a good back up item in a kayakers safety gear kit, to be deployed and used if inclement weather closes in conditions become hazardous?

Two sides, still with the no party.


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## kayakone

paffoh said:


> Was the first question I asked some of the old schoolers back in 2006, should I tether myself to my kayak?
> 
> While there are pro and con the consensus was no, never, ever... Not required.
> 
> I tend to think that while loosing your kayak due to windage once capsized is a real threat the majority of users would rather know that they can exit via capsize without additional tangling hazards, given the paddle leash, rod leash, multiple onboard items etc. Perhaps it could and would be fesible if very minimal gear was taken onboard, or was on deck high so to speak. For instance if I was a sea kayaker paddling a decent SOT a few clicks out solo, just enjoying fitness I might employ one. However the topic is a bit like wearing waders in a kayak to me, has been proven acceptable and even promoted but alas I will never don a set.
> 
> However, might be a good back up item in a kayakers safety gear kit, to be deployed and used if inclement weather closes in conditions become hazardous?
> 
> Two sides, still with the no party.


I understand the debate about leashing or not. I feel it depends on:

1. where you are coming from (history, and skills, which Dru has alluded to), and

2. the craft you are paddling/pedaling/sailing (AI/TI).

1. If you come from a history of whitewater/sea kayaking in the surf, and have a bombproof roll, then you have the skills _*and the mindset*_ to _*never*_ leave your yak ... you simply roll upright. if you don't get it first go, you try again etc...You do this because the kayak _is_ your flotation, and the means to get where you want to go, being the destination or home. You can do this because you are watertight, and are locked into the kayak, e.g. some surf play days we would get rolled 20 times in 3 hours. I never saw anyone leave their kayak. You are always part of your kayak. I never saw anyone leashed to their kayak.

2. SOT's are different in that you are not locked in, nor are you likely to be able to roll a wide SOT, even with thigh braces, which hardly any have. So if you go off, you can be separated, and in bad wind conditions, even light winds and surf, separation is a high risk. Has leashing a valuable role in kayaker safety with SOT's? Maybe, but it also could impose more dangers than the separation problems it solves.



ArWeTherYet said:


> What happens if a boat is about to run you down and you need to be able to jump free of your kayak?
> 
> What happens if you are fishing near a exposed rock or headland and a freak wave catches your kayak and you need to jump free?


Well yes to the first scenario, unless the leash was long. (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37108&p=554310)

In the second scenario, which is quite possible in Sydney, Straddie coming up, the attachment would need to be easily removed, even under load, with a quick release buckle as in whitewater rescue PFD's, or as a last resort with a safety knife.



ArWeTherYet said:


> Your best chance of survival is to have the skills to prevent yourself from falling out in winds and be able to get back in quickly. Most kayak fishermen dont have much in the way of theses skills and will rely on a bit of rope to save them not only potentially being inhibiting, but having a false sense of security.


I am in agreement with all that Paul, but Dru was merely posing a perfectly valid question. Rob Mousley's article contains a lot of valuable observations, obviously from extensive surf experience. Skills training, and practice, both improve your chances across a lot of scenarios, and can definitely make a difference between an incident and an accident (or worse).

The one thing I cannot accept, is a paddle leash that can fail. That can be the leash itself (many commercial leashes are crap) or the plastic links or saddles they are attached to. The paddle is your engine ... you must not lose it.

Gary Forrest pointed this out to us on the Safety Days here, in that many leashes will not take the very large forces of a surf wipeout, or a strong wind with a hapless yakker hanging on as if his life depended on it, which it does, if he is not tethered. NO points in the paddle leash chain should break under these scenarios. Otherwise, WTF, why leash at all if it going to fail in normally expected conditions. If you get limb/neck entanglement, and you must get free, then carry the safety knife to cut the bastard free (attached to your life jacket). https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_item ... lutePage=6.

The same applies to the new speed breed ... even more so.... the AI/TI. If you fall off under sail, maybe tethering here is more important than in any other kayaking situation. You can be doing 15 - 20 kms/hr and see your saily yak disappearing in the distance if you are not tethered. Here you must have the safety knife, and preferably, as the sailors do, a PFD that floats you on your back as you are towed under tether, and not face down or limb first underwater.

Just a few thoughts for further discussion..........

trev


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## dru

A lot of lessons from this reference. Many I'm afraid to say along the lines of some elements of the ski world could learn from yakkers. But read this report specifically thinking about body leashing to a yak - more accurately a racing SOT ie to a ski.

http://skinnyski.com/notices/display.asp?Id=23697

On reflection I will not be adding a thigh leash to any fishing SOT that I set up (note that I mostly fish and paddle solo). But I am definitely including hangi g on to my leashed paddle in my fall off and remount practice.

Otoh, I've been considering following Red into racing skis. Thigh leash for sure.


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## keza

There is no golden rule. I think you need to be away of when is a good time to clip one on and have it there in case.
I have carried one off shore before and if a big wind comes up and I feel I might go in then I clip it on to the side of my life jacket. The other end is clipped on to my seat and it is just 3 metres of cord jammed into a piece of electrical conduit, if I go over it will pull the cord out.
I would never just leave it clipped on. Never around surf or rocks. You just need t use your head but I think they are a worthy safety addition for some trips.


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## ArWeTherYet

mingle said:


> I'd hate to fall off an A.I. when it's hammering along at 15km/h+...


 :shock:

So you have tested while hammering along at 15k/hr?

Honestly if you haven't tested a tether in a real world situation then your just guessing. From my experience it would just rip your PDF or worst still wrap around you, perhaps your neck.

It is as Paffoh says when you fall off everything wraps around you, its bad enough with the fishing line. As said before, tether the paddle and hold it tightly. All the times I've fallen off in practice and real situation I havent had any problem holding the paddle. Once a split paddle come apart at the wrong end, so I tether at the right side, or not use it. If you have a hobie you can hold a leash in your hand. 
I'm sure they have specialized harnesses for sailing boats, bet they dont tether to there PDF.

LB I'm worried about Trev, soon he'll have so much safety gear and fishing gear he'll just sink if he fell off, so dont put any more ideas into his head.


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## shadowrunner

ArWeTherYet said:


> .
> I'm sure they have specialized harnesses for sailing boats, bet they dont tether to there PDF.


you are correct (they actually tether to your waist via a belt style harness or to your chest via chest harness) I used to race 125, sabres and moved up to a 30 foot trailer sailor, the 125 (2 man small racer)I wore a chest harness that went over the top of the PDF at all times because I was out on the side as a counter weight, the sabre (1 man racer) was a waist harness to tether me to the boat if I went overboard (always had a knife to cut away asap if it sank)
the trailer sailor(3 or 4 man depending on the race. tripolis in SA was 3 man teams(whyalla to port pirie to Pt Augusta then back to whyalla), well that was a different thing all over, the only time the harness went on was if we knew we were to race in extremely rough weather and that was chest harness with a knife strapped to you if you had to cut away, safe to say I never had to cut away , but I have been knocked overboard a few times from the boom and that harness has kept me safe.


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## gbc

I use a paddle leash on mine all the time - I'm happy enough to use it in the surf. For me I think the plusses outweigh the minusses. I can't think of a way or a reason to strap myself to the boat. If I am dislodged from the boat so violently that I can't even hold the paddle I'm guessing there might be a good reason for me to not be near the boat anyway? Knowing that your kayak will sit neutral across the wind when you fall out is obviously a big factor in making your decision as well. My old scupper pro would tend to 'sail' off downwind very quickly which would make me think a legrope might be a big plus offshore on something like that.
Hobie AIs again are showing they are more a sail boat than a yak. How much weather helm do they carry on which headings? Once it has rounded up with the sheet rope still clutched off, will it just sail off on a different tack anyway like other tri's? As a sailing dinghy, how does the inherent design save you when you fall out? Most dinghys need humans for ballast otherwise they simply fall over - not so with a tri. These questions probably all have answers, I just don't own one to know.


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## kayakone

shadowrunner said:


> ArWeTherYet said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> I'm sure they have specialized harnesses for sailing boats, bet they dont tether to their PFD.
> 
> 
> 
> you are correct (they actually tether to your waist via a belt style harness or to your chest via chest harness) I used to race 125, sabres and moved up to a 30 foot trailer sailor, the 125 (2 man small racer)I wore a chest harness that went over the top of the PDF at all times because I was out on the side as a counter weight, the sabre (1 man racer) was a waist harness to tether me to the boat if I went overboard (always had a knife to cut away asap if it sank)
> the trailer sailor(3 or 4 man depending on the race. tripolis in SA was 3 man teams(whyalla to port pirie to Pt Augusta then back to whyalla), well that was a different thing all over, the only time the harness went on was if we knew we were to race in extremely rough weather and that was chest harness with a knife strapped to you if you had to cut away, safe to say I never had to cut away , but I have been knocked overboard a few times from the boom and that harness has kept me safe.
Click to expand...

Here's a picture of a Ronstan:

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl= ... A&dur=8885

https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_item ... olutePage=

There are some interesting comments on sailing harnesses in some of the attached threads:
https://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&sugexp ... 14&bih=677

And this one: :shock:  
http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/inde ... 149&rid=11



gbc said:


> I use a paddle leash on mine all the time - I'm happy enough to use it in the surf. For me I think the plusses outweigh the minusses. I can't think of a way or a reason to strap myself to the boat. If I am dislodged from the boat so violently that I can't even hold the paddle I'm guessing there might be a good reason for me to not be near the boat anyway? Knowing that your kayak will sit neutral across the wind when you fall out is obviously a big factor in making your decision as well. My old scupper pro would tend to 'sail' off downwind very quickly which would make me think a legrope might be a big plus offshore on something like that.
> Hobie AIs again are showing they are more a sail boat than a yak. How much weather helm do they carry on which headings? Once it has rounded up with the sheet rope still clutched off, will it just sail off on a different tack anyway like other tri's? As a sailing dinghy, how does the inherent design save you when you fall out? Most dinghys need humans for ballast otherwise they simply fall over - not so with a tri. These questions probably all have answers, I just don't own one to know.


These are interesting questions re the behaviour of an AI without the sailor? Anyone tried it...? I do know that fully furled, the windage on the boat and the mast is significant, even in ten knots of wind. Even if it did round up, I wonder if you could catch it in 10 + knots? Be interesting to experiment......

I'm starting to think I should have a sailing harness on when on the AI, but not in paddle/pedal craft. BTW, gbc, have you tested your paddle leash comparable to surf loadings (wear eye protection)? This point was raised by the instructor in the safety days we had here, that many leashes fail either in the cord itself, or at the attachment points (often plastic).

trev


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## keza

I know from experience that with my PA sail up the scupper pro go over when i'm not in it and the sail works as a sea anchor, no need for a tether.
This was tested in about 30knt winds, without the saail the yak would have been long gone.


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## kayakone

OK. Shadowrunner and gbc have got me thinking. To answer the question of tethering to the AI, we need to do some testing in the AI (or someone who knows chips in):

1.


gbc said:


> How much weather helm do they carry on which headings?


Let the rudder go, and see what happens. This would need to be tested on differing direction runs to the wind, and ideally across a range of wind strengths.



gbc said:


> My old scupper pro would tend to 'sail' off downwind very quickly....


 I think if you are downwind you might stay downwind, which means a case for a tether. Still needs to be tested.

2.


gbc said:


> Once it has rounded up with the sheet rope still clutched off, will it just sail off on a different tack anyway like other tri's?


Good point. Does anyone know?

Grinz, Red, Decay, TFM? Anyone home?

trev


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## gbc

Probably deserves it's own topic, and sorry to Dru for continuing down this path, but there is some confusion here about harnesses and their uses on sail boats.
Unfortunately they are both referred to as the same thing.

A dinghy/beach cat/sailboarder etc will refer to a harness, which is in fact a trapeze harness and kayakone posted two links to these. They serve no purpose other than supporting a crew member's weight whilst hiking out on the trapeze wire. They all generally have an open or a quick release hook which is meant to release the crew member quickly to enable them to tack or move about the boat, and most importantly, release in the event of a capsize. The crew member is only ever attached to the boat however, when hiking (standing on the gunwale parallel to the water - well that's the theory anyway....)

A yachtsman(person) will also refer to a harness, which is in fact a safety harness. These are webbing harnesses which are usually used in combination with a pair of tether lines, one about 1200mm long, the other about 1800mm long. The tethers have a one handed snap clip on them and are used alternately at sea to move from one strong point to another or to clip off to a static line which is specially attached to the deck. Unless manipulated by the crew member, they should'nt ever undo. These days you can get inflateable pfd's with a built in safety harness, even jackets with built in pfd's and harnesses. This style of harness, I believe is what an Ai sailor might be thinking about offshore?
Hope this is of assistance.


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## kayakone

gbc said:


> Probably deserves it's own topic, and sorry to Dru for continuing down this path, but there is some confusion here about harnesses and their uses on sail boats.
> Unfortunately they are both referred to as the same thing.
> 
> A dinghy/beach cat/sailboarder etc will refer to a harness, which is in fact a trapeze harness and kayakone posted two links to these. They serve no purpose other than supporting a crew member's weight whilst hiking out on the trapeze wire. They all generally have an open or a quick release hook which is meant to release the crew member quickly to enable them to tack or move about the boat, and most importantly, release in the event of a capsize. The crew member is only ever attached to the boat however, when hiking (standing on the gunwale parallel to the water - well that's the theory anyway....)
> 
> A yachtsman(person) will also refer to a harness, which is in fact a safety harness. These are webbing harnesses which are usually used in combination with a pair of tether lines, one about 1200mm long, the other about 1800mm long. The tethers have a one handed snap clip on them and are used alternately at sea to move from one strong point to another or to clip off to a static line which is specially attached to the deck. Unless manipulated by the crew member, they should'nt ever undo. These days you can get inflateable pfd's with a built in safety harness, even jackets with built in pfd's and harnesses. This style of harness, I believe is what an Ai sailor might be thinking about offshore?
> Hope this is of assistance.


"Hope this is of assistance."

Enormously. Tell us more. I think the risk is quite high for an AI (of coming off and losing the boat). This possibly has application far beyond the paddle/pedal yak scenario.

trev

trev


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## shadowrunner

gbc said:


> Probably deserves it's own topic, and sorry to Dru for continuing down this path, but there is some confusion here about harnesses and their uses on sail boats.
> Unfortunately they are both referred to as the same thing.


hence why i said about the 2 types ( both are called harnesses ) the chest ( for the trapeze ) and the belt style ( for securing to the boat) on the 30 footer we used the chest style in rough weather as it doesn't try and rip your testicles off if you get knocked overboard


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## Ado

I, like many others, own a Hobie. I am rarely paddling and therefore am rarely holding a paddle. A paddle leash is of no use to me.


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## dru

Ado said:


> I, like many others, own a Hobie. I am rarely paddling and therefore am rarely holding a paddle. A paddle leash is of no use to me.


Interesting point. What is your thinking?

I'm not a Hobie owner so won't really have sway here. Still, I'm guessing that as the weather roughens up I would be getting the paddle out. In which case it might be rare to be using the paddle, but it might also be exactly the time that a tethered paddle stacks up?


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## dru

Guys, with respect to the sailing "tether" thoughts I'm not so sure it is a direct corollary. K1, the trapeze isn't really a tether, and on most sailing dinghies the "trap" (trapeze) is for the forward hand only. No such "safety" device for the helm. (yes there are exceptions like the skiffs, but the 125 was specifically mentioned).

The trap isn't to stop man overboard at all. It's to allow the crew to get their body weight further outboard and to allow more sail or more aggressive sail. The trap hangs from the top (ish) of the mast and the crew hooks up to it as they push out from the boat. There is one on each side, you can't stay hooked up and pass under the boom. All in all sounds like a major flaff to something like the AI where the mast won't have enough strength for a trap anyway and people are already complaining about ducking under the boom.

In terms of it being relevant to being dragged at speed by a tether, this doesn't correlate either. The trap lifts from above, not drags you along. Yes I have lost footing, or had an incompetent helm who couldn't balance the boat... And end up hung from the trap bouncing over the waves at speed hanging next to the boat. Its good fun and a laugh (unless you are racing at the time). Not the same as being dragged by a yak in weather rough enough to tip you off.

Here is an analogy that comes closer to concerns about being dragged in open conditions with lines out. We were the last boat holding a kite (spinika) into the shy run (fastest sail boat speed) in a race. We were no way the best sailers in the race and should have noted the decisions of our peers (betters). Lost my footing on a wave. Got flung forward (this happens on trap, you rarely get dropped and dragged). Did a wheelie around the boat, off the trap spinning like a pendulum, swinging straight into the kite. Which cocooned me, still aerial, and with the kite body wrap continued spinning around to the wrong side of the boat. pulling it down on top of me.

Now body wrapped. Underwater. Tethered and can't release through the body wrap. Until free, mast stays now acting as throat garrot, swimming to the surface for air, straight into the mainsail now sitting on the water. We didn't finish the race.

But it is starting to sound closer to: line wraps, tethers, cutting left right and centre, whilst underwater, being dragged at pace, in rough conditions.

In retrospect I get why some yakkers have passion on the matter.


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## Ado

dru said:


> Ado said:
> 
> 
> 
> I, like many others, own a Hobie. I am rarely paddling and therefore am rarely holding a paddle. A paddle leash is of no use to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting point. What is your thinking?
> 
> I'm not a Hobie owner so won't really have sway here. Still, I'm guessing that as the weather roughens up I would be getting the paddle out. In which case it might be rare to be using the paddle, but it might also be exactly the time that a tethered paddle stacks up?
Click to expand...

I don't currently tether. As I'm usually fishing solo, I also have not intentionally rolled my yak on the ocean to see how things pan out. I've been out in fairly rough conditions (white caps forming) but am yet to feel the need to have my paddle in hand (except of course during launch or landing). Since pedalling is more powerful, that's my propulsion of choice into and side on to the wind. Rudder steering is also only possible when pedalling as you can't paddle and use the rudder hand control at the same time. Therefore I don't think I will have my paddle in hand at the time I'm most likely to tip, except in the surf zone where it shouldn't be leashed anyway.

This is why I watch these debates. I'm starting to lean towards making a sheathed tether but only using it if I get caught out in strong winds.


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## gbc

My first thoughts about leashing to an Ai, being such a small boat and carrying it's centre of effort so far forward are:
1. There has to be a point of attachment on such a small boat that will make it turn immediately once you fall - The foreward lifting handle?
2. If you manage to dismount during a shy run I'm thinking they'll just round up immediately no matter where you're tethered so long as it's somewhere foreward of the centreline?
3. We are talking dodgy weather conditions and crossings here? Day to day muck around stuff would see you hating a harness - maybe we should start calling them lifelines?

This style of combined pfd/harness would be about the simplest? Or perhaps a whitewater guide/rescue pfd with the built in harness. Perfonally I'd try for the latter as I don't have any real faith in inflateable pfd's.


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## shadowrunner

dru said:


> In terms of it being relevant to being dragged at speed by a tether, this doesn't correlate either. The trap lifts from above, not drags you along. Yes I have lost footing, or had an incompetent helm who couldn't balance the boat... And end up hung from the trap bouncing over the waves at speed hanging next to the boat. Its good fun and a laugh (unless you are racing at the time). Not the same as being dragged by a yak in weather rough enough to tip you off.
> .


hurts like a bitch when you get slammed into the forward gunwale , and if it happens at the wrong time you do get dragged through the water a fair bit. even more annoying if you are on the trap and slip as you are just starting a tack. never been out on the trap with the kite out as you normally only ever put that out when the wind is at your back


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## kayakone

gbc said:


> My first thoughts about leashing to an Ai, being such a small boat and carrying it's centre of effort so far forward are:
> 1. There has to be a point of attachment on such a small boat that will make it turn immediately once you fall - The foreward lifting handle?
> 2. If you manage to dismount during a shy run I'm thinking they'll just round up immediately no matter where you're tethered so long as it's somewhere foreward of the centreline?
> 3. We are talking dodgy weather conditions and crossings here? Day to day muck around stuff would see you hating a harness - maybe we should start calling them lifelines?
> 
> This style of combined pfd/harness would be about the simplest? Or perhaps a whitewater guide/rescue pfd with the built in harness. Perfonally I'd try for the latter as I don't have any real faith in inflateable pfd's.


Good points from a sailor. Not sure if they will round up...they may sail away. I think the whitewater harness PFD is a good idea (inflateables are risky in our situations where you could hole them with hooks etc. - also you have to inflate them, when maybe you are so disablesd you can't). I've used one in fast whitewater (over 20 km/hr) tethered, and they keep you face up and bouyant.

Here are a few being tested:

http://www.canoekayak.com/gear/safe-is-smooth/

trev


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## gbc

I reckon they're the go for an AI - no extra kit apart from a leash, nice and simple.

I was looking for a downwind cat pitchpole on utube as they are what I am most familiar with (cobras, prindles, nacras), but I found a cracking little vid of a cherub in action. The last minute of footage shows well how a trap gets used and the general mayhem involved in navigating dinghys around marks. Enjoy - language warning (If you don't swear whilst racing you're doing it wrong haha)


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## shadowrunner

lol at least he was nicer than my last skipper, even going flat out like that to tack he was screaming profanities that i wasn't quick enough (and i was normally done and back in position faster than he was, and he had less to do) Nice quick recovery by the hand though, normally an impact like that knocks the wind out of you


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## shadowrunner

basically what you have done there is make a fall arrester for a safety harness (exact same principal yet it is designed to lessen the fall speed)


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## cheaterparts

indiedog said:


> I've seen much debate about leashing yourself to the yak, often with those advocating it being howled down by those against it. I hear those who say you must be able to swim (and it seems so sensible to have that skill) but for me being able to swim shouldn't be the primary way to save yourself if you come off the yak. First and foremost (again for me), to not be separated from the kayak is the most fundamental thing to survive on the open water.


I totaly agree with you

there are times where staying in contact with your yak if you go in could be quite hard
In my own favourit fishing area has quite high tide flows where 6 - 8 kmh tide flows are not out of the norm
this isn't a great problem if under way but at anchor if you got only a few meters from the yak even the best swimers in a PFD 
would struggle against it
this is bad enough in day light hours but having taken a dip at night my nav light was a meter under water ( still working ) 
once in the water the yak nav light under water apart from the tide flow then the yak is almost out of sight

this is the time I like the idea of a Cheater to yak leash - I however have a simple setup its just a surf board leg rope which I put around my wrist
if iI go in and its tangled the velco is easy to remove also the tide flow and if you end up at the end of the leash you are turned the right way , the yak is straight in front


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## ArWeTherYet

indiedog said:


> I've seen much debate about leashing yourself to the yak, often with those advocating it being howled down by those against it.


Lets stick to facts, who's advocating it?
The two qualified kayak instructors that I know and others are vehemently apposed. The instructors that Trev and Dru know have given, after being pested on the subject, a maybe and an eye roll,. guess a nod is as good as a wink to a blind man.
If you think you know better than them, then fine make your home made contraption, test it out fully in a real situation of winds at least 25kts or over, with some crappy rigged up fishing rods etc like you would if you were actually fishing, do it many times, work out techniques to using it, if you can get it to work every time without a hitch, then I will have all the respect in the world to you for developing a maybe potentially life saving device.

Having yourself hitched to your kayak is potentially dangerous, I'm sorry you cant see that. Nobody is howling you down, just having a difference of opinion.

Mingle has tethered his AI to his PFD, he sees that as being safe, I think OMG!!
Guys who tether them selves to sailing boats have specialized equipment and are trained in there use.....cause they can be potentially dangerous.


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## keza

For the sake of a very small piece of safety equipment, I don't see the harm in stashing one on your yak somewhere.
Some people carry flares, I think, why the f would anyone carry flares in a yak. One the other hand, if you were stuck out at sea on your yak and in a position to warrant a flare then it may be a good idea to tether yourself to the yak.
I have been in a sea where i thought, if I come off the yak there is no way I could catch up to it in this wind.
I have carried a tether and never used it.
If the situation comes up where the wind is so strong that I know I couldn't swim after my yak and I have a tether on me I'll use it.
Would I put on on in the surf, are you crazy !
Would I connect myself to the yak every time I get on ? If I felt like that then I shouldn't be going out to sea.

What we are talking about here is a small device that may never be used or may save a life.
The variants are huge, how good a swimmer are you, how fast does your yak blow across the water, etc etc etc.
There is no one answer, you need a level of intelligence to figure this one out for yourself. Ask the instructor if he has been fishing 6ks off shore in your exact yak, with your exact abilities and in the conditions that might mean you could clip on a tether.
He will probably start with I haven't fished from a kayak.

I struggle to see why some people are so threatened by opposing opinions. They are opinions unless you have tried it.


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## gbc

I think the confusion is about the paradigm created when Ai sailors who like fishing happened to joing a kayak fishing forum. My opinion is that once rigged, an Ai is a sailing boat, not a kayak. It is a sailing boat based on a kayak, but once under way pretty much all of the kayak characteristics are left behind.
If I for some strange reason put a motor on my yak, I'd want a method of stopping it in an emergency - ie a deadman leash to the ignition circuit. As I see it, an Ai has an engine (sail) and no deadman. Fall out and it can sail away, and not in the gentle way a kayak might drift off downwind.
How about having a deadman leash attched to a quick release clevis on the sheet block? Should be easy, just use a spinaker pole release between the block and the hull fitting, and tie it to your person. Fall out and the sail is released.

Bottom line, they are a great bit of kit, but they don't fit perfectly into the standard kayak safety regime - I cannot imagine tying myself to my kayak. When I'm in my stink boat single handed 30 mile the other side of Cape Moreton you can be assured I always wear my lifejacket and the deadman leash, and if I was making a significant crossing in a small trimaran that doesn't capsize the second I fall out of it, then I would want a deadman to depower it, or a lifeline to connect me to it.


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## Ado

ArWeTherYet said:


> Having yourself hitched to your kayak is potentially dangerous, I'm sorry you cant see that.


I think everyone can see that AWTY. They are not denying it. They are just saying that not having yourself attached to your yak is also dangerous. The argument then becomes about when the dangers of not being tethered outweigh the dangers of being tethered. You seem to be saying never. Others are saying sometimes.


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## kayakone

Ado said:


> ArWeTherYet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having yourself hitched to your kayak is potentially dangerous, I'm sorry you cant see that.
> 
> 
> 
> I think everyone can see that AWTY. They are not denying it. They are just saying that not having yourself attached to your yak is also dangerous. The argument then becomes about when the dangers of not being tethered outweigh the dangers of being tethered. You seem to be saying never. Others are saying sometimes.
Click to expand...

Yep.

1. Indie/Keza/Cheterparts are saying there are times, maybe.......Slow speeds but you could still lose your yak.

2. AI owners like myself/Mingle are thinking it is a good idea, especially as the boat will possibly sail away. Because of the higher speeds of an AI, any harness must be a proper one (e.g. whitewater rescue PFD or yachting safety harness). (BTW, Mingle, are you going to take up AWTY's challenge and jump off at 15 km/hr? That is the acid test.)

trev


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## theclick

From an outsider's perspective, there seems to be inherent irregularities in this argument...

Yes it is true that if you leash your paddle or yourself to the kayak, there is a chance of entanglement, which could result in drowning. This has generated alot of discussion and it seems, emotion. When you are in the surf zone, or anywhere where there is a strong likelihood of a rotating kayak, it is probably not a good idea.

However, for open water paddling, I would view that the potential danger from a leash in a capsize situation would be inherently lower than the danger from say, a 9 foot fibreglass pole with 30lb mono and a barbed treble hook on the end. There would be ample opportunity in a capsize situation to get snagged by a treble, caught in a landing net, or even tangled in some stray fishing line. Despite the inherent risks associated with these, I bet very few people keep everything stowed at all times. If you asked the kayak instructors about what they think about having these sticking out from the boat, I bet they'd say "get rid of it", but who is going to listen to that?

I often roll, renter and roll, cow-boy, T-rescue, whatever with a paddle leash, and to be honest, it has only helped me in those situations stay in contact with the kayak- it has never got in the road (not even in the surf). It would only become an issue if, say, it got tangled on a rodholder, a fish finder mount, a trolled line..

Is it the leash itself which is dangerous, or the things we are using around it?


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## ArWeTherYet

Jeeze Louise, who's getting emotional?
Tie yourself to your bloody kayak see what I care.
I going to have a Valium and a lie down.


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## keza

ArWeTherYet said:


> Jeeze Louise, who's getting emotional?
> Tie yourself to your bloody kayak see what I care.
> I going to have a Valium and a lie down.


Just don't tie yourself to the bed


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## CET

Why not put my 2 bobs worth in.

Just because a person is a kayak instructor doesn't mean they know more than someone who isn't a kayak instructor. I could start a business tomorrow "Pete's Kayak Instructions". You don't need a licence to teach kayaking.

If you leash yourself to a kayak you could get tangled in it?? You would do If it was too long but there is not much distance between your bum and the kayak, so it needs to be short. A leash on a paddle has to be longer and could be a problem.

Being leashed to a kayak is dangerous in surf?? Un clip it. Surf is generally encountered near the shore. If you fall off you are not going to be stranded at sea, you are going to be dumped on the beach. For a beach landing in big surf, jump out, hold the end and push the yak ahead of you, or lay on the back end. My current kayak a Mission Surge has been good to control in the surf. I had a Hawk sit in, it did summersaults or rolls or both at the same time, it was a get out and push in kayak.

Oh, you could get washed against a rock?? You'd be better off to learn to read the waves and the wind and know where you shouldn't be. Be aware of waves coming in different directions, usually after a wind change. Although the waves may not be big, when they synchronise they can double the size.

That was about 2 quids worth.

Pete


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## kayakone

ArWeTherYet said:


> indiedog said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen much debate about leashing yourself to the yak, often with those advocating it being howled down by those against it.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets stick to facts, who's advocating it?
> The two qualified kayak instructors that I know and others are vehemently apposed. The instructors that Trev and Dru know have given, after being pested on the subject, a maybe and an eye roll. Guess a nod is as good as a wink to a blind man.
Click to expand...

That is true, but they *do not fall out of their kayaks*, because they have bombproof rolls in any conditions (aka 'off' for SOT's). 
I've seen Gary Forrest roll his sea kayak with a fully deployed Flat Earth sail, in 15 knots of wind, lumpy seas and considerable ocean swell. Now obviously, with the drag of the sail, he made it up only a third of the way first go, with his head still under the water. No problem ... he started sculling braces for 15 seconds or so until his head and the sail were out, and he was upright. Easy peasy (for a Level II sea kayak instructor). Actually there would probably be over a hundred sea kayakers in Australia with similar skill levels.



CET said:


> Why not put my 2 bobs worth in.
> 
> Just because a person is a kayak instructor doesn't mean they know more than someone who isn't a kayak instructor. I could start a business tomorrow "Pete's Kayak Instructions". You don't need a licence to teach kayaking.
> 
> Pete


Yes Pete, you could start "Pete's Kayak Instructions", but you would be sticking your neck on the chopping block of legal liability. You would also be IMO be elevating yourself above (or denying the value of) vastly superior knowledge (BTW I say this generally, because I really haven't a clue about _your_ kayaking skills and knowledge).

Yes, a non instructor may know _something_ about kayaking that an instructor doesn't know. However the non instructor's depth of knowledge and experience will likely be considerably less than that of an accredited instructor.

An Australian Canoeing qualified instructor such as Gary Forrest, Craig McSween, Rob Mercer etc, is not only very experienced in kayaking (some across a range of disciplines), but they are also subject to a lengthy list of qualifications, both practical and theoretical, that they must achieve (and post qualification regularly maintain), before they become instructors. There would be little knowledge they impart that would not be consistent with one another. If they say don't leash, I'd be listening, but you would need to qualify your question to them relevant to our discussion i.e. SOT's and AI/TI's.

Pete
I think this has been a very informative discussion, so I'm glad you raised it again. I _was_ wondering if you have you read the first post by Dru, including the link? Have you read the entire thread? Quite a number of interesting ideas have been offered, such as Indiedog's idea.

Tell you what I'll do right now. I'll contact Gary Forrest for his comments regarding this subject, and if he replies, I'll put them here. Despite him not usually paddling a SOT, he may have something worth listening to.


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## keza

Do we need more opinions ? I think this is one of those personal choice type things.
I have done many hours fishing in open water, I have carried a tether on multiple occasions, I have considered using it once but I have never used it.
I would still carry one sometimes just in case I choose to use it as I have seen a kayak blow away in the wind faster than anyone could swim to it.
We all have opinions and they are all relevant to our own experience but at the end of the day a small tether like this one: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25888&hilit=tether
weighs nothing and takes up very little space so if you like the idea why not carry it. I have rolled with sail up, paddle leash, 4 rod leashes, tail rope and a couple of other cords floating around but got tangled in none of them. I do carry a hook knife in case I need it.
I carry a plb but have never used it.


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## kayakone

That's a good link Kerry for the tether (before my time here). Might make one for SOT's, but not for the AI at speed... I reckon that's back to a sailing safety harness or whitewater rescue PFD.

BTW, Gary Forrest has replied already, and is happy to offer his opinion in relation to SOT's and AI/TI's. We'll see. Dru, maybe ask Rob Mercer to write something as well?


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## Guest

The only time I have ever felt the need was at the straddie comp early this year but not till after I nearly got knocked off the yak. Certain conditions do call for this but on the most part most of us would stay home when it would be required. If it wasn't a comp then most of us would not have fished at all that weekend


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## kayakone

Tonystott said:


> When offshore, I lead my TI's joined furling and mainsheet lines through a carabiner attached to my PFD. As well as keeping me attached to the boat, I then have the means to furl the sail quickly to reduce speed through the water.


That's a good idea Tony. I will be adopting that next time I am in AI mode. A few AI/TI owners have wondered about that (Mingle sometimes attaches himself). In the main, I feel it has been a fruitful discussion. I think the differences in opinion arise from different craft, and differing skill levels. As Kerry said, there is no one rule for all situations.


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## troutfisher

I think sailing a kayak is completely different to paddling; in that you are not holding onto your paddle which should be leashed. My outback with its amas holds course very well, not a happy situation when your a few ks from the shore if you happened to be tossed out. Its very unlikely but the leash does give a sense of security, though you want to be confident that your kayak will float if bowled over.


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## troutfisher

I'm wondering how many lives have been lost when somebody has had a leash attached to themselves though when not in surf conditions.


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## dru

Great link mingle. We are surely now gaining concensus?

For what it's worth, Paddle NSW require a leash for open water racing. On ski's a thigh leash seems to be the common answer, in SIK's they accept a paddle leash.


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## Garyf

Leashing yourself/paddle????
This is such a variable debate.
Why!!!!!
Conditions Sea Swell Surf?
Size, type of Kayak?
Gear on deck?
Type of leash/size/length/strength/
goes on and on.
So some of my experience may or may not help you &#8230;written in good faith based on my 16yrs paddling and 7 years of instruction, and a lot of ocean and surf time.

*IT comes down to making your own assessment&#8230;.Yes YOU *
_*ON Paddle Leashing*_

I always leash my paddle to Sea Kayak (my assessment for me) (in surf zone and open sea). I also know my paddle location upside down in the surf eyes closed and night paddling in the dark, also I can control paddle/blade not to get it tangled around my neck &#8230;many years of training helps&#8230;.if you can't control your paddle and/or loose it , it may be a problem so leashing may not be for you. If you lost your paddle? Do you carry a spare? Can you propel your kayak the shore by hands? Do you have a spare in your group? Can you control a rescue plan on water with no paddle? Ask yourself.

*IT comes down to making your own assessment&#8230;.Yes YOU* 
_* ON Leashing yourself to your kayak*_

On this one I believe you must evaluate so much more data.
Two X Two Issues
1.Sit on tops and Sit in Kayaks (discussed a lot already)
2. Moving fast and paddling normally. (discussed a lot already)

Are you going to get separated from your kayak? You are a swimmer in the great big blue ocean, do you have on your body, in your PFD rescue gear to get home. (Flares PLB, EPIRB, water proof radio etc. )
It's a lot to do with risk assessment of all the variables. 
Some Variables are:
Wind speed moving your kayak away from you fast, water currents moving you away in water, size of kayak and sail rig, swell, sea, Beach surf or Ocean surf breaking waves, can you swim well/fast.
Getting dragged along by a ghost kayak and having trouble breathing with water/submarining at speed under sail (PS you're to bait for the big fish). What do normal sailors do/use during trips? PS: normal sailing boats don't have rods and lines out also.
I have only on rare occasions have I leashed myself to Kayak. Conditions dictated I didn't want to get separated from my kayak or I would probably not may it home/shore. (Again my assessment for me)

Also another link http://www.seakayakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2211


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## dru

Gary

Welcome to the forum buddy. Great to have someone with formal qualifications speaking up.


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## Ado

dru said:


> Gary
> 
> Welcome to the forum buddy. Great to have someone with formal qualifications speaking up.


What he said. Welcome aboard and thanks for your thoughts.


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## kayakone

Thanks Gary for your experience and voice on this subject.

We look forward to more input from you at the next SE Qld Safety Day.

(For those who don't know Gary Forrest - Gary is a Level II sea kayak instructor [Australian Canoeing qualified]. He has run the last two Safety Days for AKFF & KFDU members, as well as hundreds of hours instructing many other people at all levels on paddle skills and safety).

For personal instruction from Gary, contact him at: http://www.queenslandseakayakinstruction.com.au or [email protected] Small groups are welcome.


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## dru

Something of a coup, Trev!


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## avayak

As far a locations to leash your paddle, would it be better to leash to the bow of the yak? My reasoning is that if you come out the yak will point into the wind, sea or surf. If you were then to lose grip of the paddle the yak would not drift as fast and the paddle would act as a drogue. I took my Stealth 465 into the surf and elected to bail a couple of times and was surprised that it didn't wash into the beach like a board would. It was never that far away.


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## keza

avayak said:


> As far a locations to leash your paddle, would it be better to leash to the bow of the yak? My reasoning is that if you come out the yak will point into the wind, sea or surf. If you were then to lose grip of the paddle the yak would not drift as fast and the paddle would act as a drogue. I took my Stealth 465 into the surf and elected to bail a couple of times and was surprised that it didn't wash into the beach like a board would. It was never that far away.


If you wanted to leash it to the bow you could bring the line down the side and then attach it closer to you with a thin breakaway cable tie, at least then you wouldn't have to deal with a long leash hanging around the yak.


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## avayak

That sounds like a plan Kerry. Would keep the leash away from my sounder sitting on the deck.


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