# Surf landings and drogues - worth a shot?



## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

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


----------



## FishinDan (Jul 3, 2006)

Hey mate. Interesting though, but I'm not sure if it would be too good...

The negatives I can guess at are - If it gets in a rip, you could be backwards out to sea... I would think in a surf landing situation you would want to be travelling the same speed as the waves... A drogue would make that harder

Just my opinions anyway


----------



## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

I've had my sea anchor deploy inadvertently a couple of time; including once while launching through the surf. There no feeling like paddling your ass off and not getting anywhere. All the while one wave after another is riding over your bow (and then over you). Red, I think I've seen the thread that you're talking about (series drogues for surf landing). Having had the sea anchor deploy in the surf before makes me a little skeptical about this plan. I've read the supporting study and understand the principle, but I just think that it wouldn't be very safe for a kayak. I think that the most important thing to do is size up the surf before you attempt to launch or land. If it looks like it is beyond your personal skill level you should either stow everything below deck to minimize the damage if you get rolled, or not make the attempt. I've always thought that a mad sprint through the surf line between sets was the best way to minimize the risk. Anything that would increase my time in the surf zone increases my exposure. Even if a drogue keeps you perpendicular to the surf, it still slows you down and increases the number of waves that you have to take. There is also the possibility of snagging something and being held in place in the surf. I am not sold on the whole concept. 
Please note that my opinion is colored by several factors that may not apply to others: 
I've never surfed. Many of my fellow SoCal kayakers were surfers for years before they took up kayak fishing. They are generally much more confident in reading the surf and riding the waves in to the beach. All I have to go by is the school of hard knocks (and near drowning); five years of self taught kayak surf launches and landings. 
The site that I normally launch from has fairly benign surf. We only have to make it out through a relatively narrow surf zone. Depending on wave period and how fast I paddle, I would estimate that I only have 6 - 10 waves that I have to deal with on launch. If I get dumped I will likely be in water that is less than head-high. Bailing out might not be pretty, but is always a viable option. We don't have multiple reefs to contend with. I could see the desire to have something to give you an extra measure of control if you had to battle the surf for hundreds of meters offshore. I would also be concerned about snagging on a reef with breaking surf while hundreds of meters offshore. I've seen enough reports from Baja California, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa to know that this is probably more the norm than our sheltered little launch.
I wouldn't be opposed to trying this method, but I would wear a PFD and helmet and wouldn't carry anything of value top-side. Who knows; it might work (or you might have to do some swimming)


----------



## hairymick (Oct 18, 2005)

Mate, IMHO, dragging a drogue through the surf is asking for trouble.

It means that the waves will be breaking over the back of your yak whih is something no kayak was designed for.


----------



## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

QlpoOTFBWSZTWa9bS1UAAGnfgAASUOeDAoSkHIo/7//gQAHrbgKcNT1MpqPUzSBtR6QAbU0NAEVPYpmp6npIyMgNDRoGTEEUeRA0A0AAAAAJTRCaATTJlRtRkD0j1D1MhDA9kijBa3DD8vFKw6ZjQo73ejT4jOqD2VoMV7qr0U/iXqduExSUPI2FiNxvWBRnOV1AqgC9yBFSIZyZhHgxE4LdKSAgQgkoUakcOsdgUmMB3gVFi+4Vwq7LoyiirM9pdKkNoDma154m5zuJVcLv1lPWrsR0JLJ3IILbFtZOI/iB/A52ht+HtOPM61Odo7HY8tveQYl3rUlkStJN+/nadaseqb6fciHiNEpDklc5sygfKHUOJ60bKK++GU57RuiBUZE3fQj60cIrm/gz3rIrq888sN51wyntouRWj3CBCRoNR5qmD7J+45iyZMDw7iuXF9unidpwjPfXnhZxPezGLXhzbkPrPGXSthIkQFk0dMccZVL9nIRb3LjfnMpYnKnCaWJJIdQix2YdYNgsp8sL90amuefByKdft7YeU9OY7RyNyb2xrn8jIEAyY5KW2PGWGMwYGyofmfQhsKbIIFIpNY3r47VsvO393hp3iQ7BydQlbE+7xTz0aMpk5pmJon7ZPSTYQa4J9bVt6P6SLhe5YM9in0ahguigT3GwQ4w0pHakoViH8XckU4UJCvW0tVA=


----------



## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

Red
Here are the links to the various threads and sites

http://forum.kayak4fish.com/viewtopic.php?t=7972
As you can see, the opinions were varied and there was some passion behind the arguments.

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5086057385/m/9141008492

http://seriesdrogue.com/coastguardreport/

http://www.seriesdrogue.com/

http://kayak4fish.com/press/SurfSkills.shtml

Paul
It isn't like I'm holding back and not sharing my vast storehouse of knowledge. I know just enough to get myself into life-threatening situations :shock: As I'm sitting outside the surf line, I have all of the knowledge and tips that I've accumulated rolling around in my head. I think that I can put all of this information to good use and make it in dry. Well my friend, that is not how it works. After a few minutes I get frustrated because I can't seem to actually tell the difference between the biggest wave in the set and the smallest. Off I go, paddling like a madman, hoping that my roll of the dice will result in a dry, and more importantly, a smooth landing.  Snake eyes :evil: Hope I can grab my yak as it shoots away from me......aaaaahhhhhhh! Sandy and wet again. Knowledge does not equal performance. To quote a truism spoken by a wise and knowledgeable AKFF member "water is wet"


----------



## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

QlpoOTFBWSZTWQSBkNwAAFVfgAASYOcAAL9oHAA/79/gQAGq5p3d0NTJqZNNT0mJgmCA9RkaBqanhFPE9SADQAGgA1TYpoJmQBNGAJoYBKaQJM0TBNI000AAyEFByTGEUKMVLy1WcTQk0OLDob+Zq2Plsqi9Hn3J8qGnpXZGOuBvgsqSOSxMiuhNUhSyLDwoe6qzrkNIrsj27OJYaIHx0Wj4MXTyqGIRU7skScQE2kisCGEVrJC80/NfabSu/5fLaP70sNVJMeHV+mwOWzWxzvkFylVeRBl2VKSWSH5J6Tm5idc95n6wyuuxoRz7QQs6zJzq1SaSZ1kWf7O4OrOHUgkOqixyiKinGWYdubayLXhrwOMYVcJj8b02DDcJuRuNc3bXHKwhppaRFByxrEWyBYYiq6VMTVPA2eebg5g9YPNOPIMM1HPAhKRYmWAiOhRgjaxoc8PQAgTS6ZQuJo0QPcwWWVi3eevc5bc6fqXXcL7gRFzmNpA5DAgR2iqre++L2EJnQhaaaFFxQUF+aINo4qK3JFhYQYRQynekiVk4jF0HaFJOIgzT2v4ci1ilIbi742qxNYO25BxbB/4u5IpwoSAJAyG4


----------



## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

Red
Sometimes there's more sarcasm and humor than reason and civil discourse when something radically different is proposed. I tend to agree with the common sentiment that learning proper surf technique and knowing one's abilities/limits is the best course of action. I wouldn't be opposed to trying it, but I think it should only be used by those who are competent in surf landings. I don't think it should be used as a way around learning proper surf landing technique. As I found out once, it is very hard to retrieve a drogue while in the surf. My only option was to just keep paddling like crazy until I eventually made it out of the surf. My new drogue rigging technique would allow a much more rapid recovery, but it would still be a very dicey maneuver in short period surf. What do you do if that big set wave rolls through while you are slowly moving through the surf line. Your kayak might stay properly lined up, but you could be swept right out of your seat. I think the South Africans have the right idea: if you're typically going to launch and land in heavy surf, use a yak/ski that is designed for the conditions. You don't see fishing skis in SoCal, because the surf is usually not much of an issue (and we just drive to the bay if it looks bad). It is best to use a craft that is designed for the conditions that you will encounter and to learn the proper technique for handling such a craft. Using a drogue in the surf seems more like an emergency measure than an everyday technique. Just my opinion.
:idea: How about an ejection seat that will catapult you ashore just as that big set wave is about to give you a roll? Oh joy. A new project that I can work on.


----------



## JD (Jul 2, 2006)

Hey Doug,
Ejection seat----more wiring and switches. You beauty. haha.


----------



## troppo (Feb 1, 2006)

Very thought provoking topic.

DGax65, you have had some interesting experiences.

At some of the local beaches, you could anchor yourself at high tide 1/2 km out and when the tide goes out you would be 1/2 km from the water. Don't know if that is a good way to make an exit from the sea though.

Thinking about drogues and surf, I just have this picture of someone paddling flat out and going practically nowhere while being hammered by waves. Not pretty.

I know one technique for handling surf is to go in backwards. When a big wave comes, paddle forward so as not to get washed back. Then paddle hard backwards until needing to go forward and handle the next biggie. The theory is that there is more control handling the waves front on. After seeing my son surfing backwards in my yak when trying to get out through a big wave and being pushed back, I don't know if that approach is any good. Anyone every tried this?

Oh, getting back to the topic: what effect would different sized drogues make? Could you have a small drogue which was big enough to keep ya heading straight in but small enough not to keep ya in the smash and bash zone longer than needed?


----------



## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

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


----------



## Billybob (Aug 29, 2005)

Coming back in in big surf I try and balance my yak with as much weight towards the back as possible.

The Swing has a small keel and the deeper it runs, the better the handling.

If I don't have a few kg's of fish to strap in the rear tank-well I plug up the four scupper holes and fill the tank-well with water before catching a wave.


----------



## spottymac (Aug 29, 2005)

l agree with Billybob,
A funny thing has happened to me a few times when l have been rolled on a big waves on the way back in,
l haven't allways had time to get back on properly before the next big wave hits and have ended up sitting in the rear storage well with my feet over each side and have no problems staying upright,

l think my feet over the side works like a drogue and all the weight in the back seems to help survive the next big wave, 
lt sounds a bit crazy l know, but it might be worth a try before l get hammered by a big wave next time.
Has this happened to any other members


----------



## DGax65 (Jun 7, 2006)

There are some SoCal yakkers that do the backwards landing trick. They say that it is very effective. I haven't tried it. but can see how it would work well. I don't like a couple of things about this method:

You spend more time in the surf zone coming in backward. More time in the zone means you have to contend with more waves. This probably means that you have a better chance of getting clobbered by the big set waves.

Big waves can wash you off you yak regardless of which direction you are pointed. I'll admit that you have much better control paddling into a wave, but it doesn't mean that the big one can't knock you off.

I prefer to use my rudder on landing. I'll use mine right up to the point where the wave is lifting the stern and I start to lose rudder authority. At that point I will center the rudder and brace for control. When I hit sand the rudder lifts up as it is designed. Coming in backwards means going without the rudder. I wouldn't want to go over the falls backwards and have the rudder assembly plant on the bottom. If you tear out the threaded insert for the rudder you are definitely screwed. Just my personal preference, but I want the rudder to do the steering and the paddles to provide the motive force in the most efficient manner possible.


----------

