# My knees are stuffed - help, I'm going to have to paddle!



## mustrumr (Feb 27, 2009)

Recently I've been experiencing problems with painful knees, with my patella clicking and grinding. Definitely caused by extended trips trolling in the Outback. At it's worst it was very painful, and even standing and walking was difficult. But I cut back my distance in the Hobie, took a bunch of anti-inflammatories, and it's been quite bearable. if not exactly cured.

I was referred to a sports physician, and I saw him this evening. The problem is that my patella isn't tracking properly in the knee groove, so it's grinding against bits it shouldn't be in contact with.

The good news is he says with an appropriate exercise program there's a 90% chance of a complete recovery in about 3 months.

The bad news is I'm not allowed to use the pedals in the Outback for at least the next 6 weeks, possibly longer. Naturally, I'm a bit shattered about this, but he assures me that if I don't quit pedalling the problem will only get worse, and the exercises won't work. I said "how about just short trips?" but he said no - complete rest from the pedals was necessary.

He says it's OK for me to paddle the kayak, but it's clearly going to limit my fishing. For a start, I'm going to have to learn how to paddle :lol: And since I haven't done any paddling before I'm going to have to do really short trips til I get used to it. This with snapper season coming up! Total bummer.

And my yak isn't set up with paddling in mind - the sounder and rod holders tend to get in the way when I'm paddling at launch, so I imagine that it would be a real pain to paddle for extended distances. The Hobie paddle is crap, but I'm not going to buy anything better just for a few weeks - it'll have to do.

Any of you paddling kayakers have any suggestions for good paddling technique or web sites? Since the rudder isn't foot operated would I be best to leave it up while I'm paddling? Any other tips?

Cheers,


----------



## YakN00b (Jun 9, 2008)

After my experiences attempting to paddle a revo I would say get a paddleyak or you will be tearing your hair out as they track about as well as a pig in a tub of turds.

Look for The Forward Stroke by Bruce Reitz and The Forward Stroke Clinic by Oscar Chalupsky and Greg Barton. I have both and they are invaluable.


----------



## johnny (Aug 12, 2007)

I too get sore knees..I deliberately altered the turn of my foot to change the forces transferred to the knee-no problems thankfully now


----------



## Feral (Oct 18, 2008)

Best use of a Hobie paddle, break it in two and use it to push on the peddles!
You will have to clear your paddling zone of rod holders etc etc. Yes do a couple of short trips until you get some idea of your paddle fitness.

Be careful following videos etc on how to paddle. I did that and tore a shoulder muscle! Definately pay more attention to tidal flows when planning your trips!


----------



## Billybob (Aug 29, 2005)

Put simply, as you dip your left paddle blade in the water and pull, you 'push' across with your right hand.

This fulcrum action enables you to use the power of your back, shoulder and abdomen to good effect.

It's what I call power paddling. Do it in slow motion first.

Once you get a handle on it you'll find you can use your upper body weight to propel you along if you get tired.

Oh, and don't grip the paddle too tight. Let the blades find their own position in the water.


----------



## grinner (May 15, 2008)

mate common problem this one especially amongst teenage girls as their patellas always track sideways as they go thru a growth spurt in adolescence.
as johnny said even adjusting your "camber" toe in or toe out may fix the problem.
generally by doing exercises to strengthen your medial quads or lateral quads you will pull the patella back into line and the problem goes away.

as yaknoob said , paddling a revo is a bit like the tub o turds analogy.

believe it or not , once when my knees were hurting i used my arms to push the mirage pedals and it worked quite well though one does look a little silly

cheers pete


----------



## Junglefisher (Jun 2, 2008)

I've never paddled an outback, but I have paddled my Revo quiite succesfully .... but........
Not using the Hobie paddle that comes with the mriage drive yaks. Buy yourself another paddle, even if it's a cheapy. It will hake a better back up paddle anyway so is worthwhile. You should be able to get a decent paddle for $100 ish, $200 would get you a good paddle I would think.
I leave my rudder in, but centered otherwise the revo simply will not track. Again, not sure about the outback. Take it out on the Swan to try out.
I paddle much the same way Billybob recommends, but have been told recently you should not push with your upper arm. Not really sure how that works though. I try and keep my upper arm extended (straight) for most of the stroke and rotate that shoulder forward to provide propulsion. The lower arm bends with the paddle coming out of the water when it's just passed me.


----------



## Big D (Apr 28, 2007)

If you do take the outback out for a paddle using the hobie paddle then make sure you've got the mirage drive on board as a backup, or another 2 piece in the hull - they have a habit of breaking.

The paddle techniques you see on you tube etc may not be suitable for paddling the outback, as you will most probably require a much longer paddle to clear the sides so you're not leaning to the side to make contact with the water. I wouldn't push to far, fast or hard.

Can the Outback take an electric???

As an alternative I'm willing to do a straight swap with you, my Quest for your Outback, and then you can say you still own a Hobie! :lol:

Hang on, even if you did accept, I love paddling so much, the upper body exercise I get, the ability to instantly reverse when needed, the ease in which I can lift and sit it on the roofracks, the speed on the water, and the simplicity of my Quest, deals off!


----------



## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Yep , ide say you are going to have to paddle , but thats not the end of the world , you will find that paddling is very nice and relaxing and very addictive and then you'll wonder why you didnt do this long ago . Anyway enough of that , See if you can find a good physiotherapist that understands how to do Mc Connell Strapping to your knee , instant relief, and will enable your knee to track correctly while you strengthen the muscles that hold it in place . I have had occasion in the past to have to have Mc Connell Strapping when i was Bike Racing and doing triathlons and marathons, and was fortunate enough to have Jenny Mc connell as a physio at Cumberland College Of Sports Science ,and she had me back on track in no time. Its a form of strapping with adhesive tape that pulls the knee cap over and holds it in place . And then buy a paddle yak or ski and enjoy yourself and be content in the knowledge that your not the first nor will you be the last who has buggered their knees through their sport


----------



## blaggon (Jan 14, 2008)

paddle ? what is this paddle thing and why would you do that :lol: :lol:


----------



## Donutslayer (Jun 9, 2007)

I get a similar problem. Not to bad while im out there but very painful in the following days. I get it in the arms as well so paddleing doesnt help. As a consequence, i dont do too much trolling. The only thing thats helped me is anti inflamitories BEFORE i go out and joint formula before and after. I also find that fatigue has a whole lot to do with it as well. Ie the tireder i am the more it hurts. My Dr's advice was similar to yours. he said take up swimming instead. The other thing thats has helped is doing squats. Seems to hold the knees together a bit. Start with 20 a day and work up to 100. Just do them when no one is around.


----------



## YakN00b (Jun 9, 2008)

i have yet to see a fishing yak paddler using anywhere near the correct technique and I know I dont have it spot on yet.
You dont push with anything you dig the blade in and rotate your torso while pushing with the same side leg. if you get it right you should feel it in your abs and the big muscles in your back as well as your hip flexors if you are as unfit as I am.

The 2 videos I mentioned are both by world and olympic champion paddlers and have helped me enormously.


----------



## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

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


----------



## deano199 (Nov 2, 2008)

The Patella...
thats the problem with my knees, my doc says he cant do any surgery until something snaps... could be months, could be years either way until that happens all i can do is put up with stiff, sore and cracking knees, GRRRR :twisted:

He said Pedaling will help strengthen the muscle and build it up, meant to help with the pain but i think the way i ride push bikes just makes it worse...
my knees are the reason i fish, BECAUSE I CANT RIDE DIRTBIKES ANYMORE!


----------



## mustrumr (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice and support, guys. I agree entirely about the "paddleability" of the Outback - it's too wide, too high, too much of a barge to be anything but a pig to paddle, but I'm an optimist, and I'm sure that paddling is going to be something I only have to do for a short time, before returning to propelling my kayak in the way that God intended :lol:

That video was really useful, Red - thanks. I'm going down to the Swan to try it all out tomorrow - going to have to experiment with the deck layout to get all the crap out of the way, as my sounder is mounted just where I need to paddle.

Johnny - you say that you changed the angle of your feet to fix your knee problems - did you go to more toe-in or toe-out? I'll be checking this out with the physio, but any suggestions would be useful. Any thoughts on this as a doctor, Grinner?

I'll certainly be checking out the strapping techniques as well (the doc mentioned strapping as an adjunct, but not an alternative, to the exercise program). He also reckons I've got terrible pronation on my feet when I walk and he's referred me to a podiatrist as he reckons the two problems are probably connected. This is going to be expensive - thank God for private health cover.

I'll post again with the results of my paddling experiments.

Cheers,


----------



## grinner (May 15, 2008)

alec, the back of the patella has a big ridge in it like a keel that keeps it in the groove.
by either strengthening your medial or lateral quads you should be able to realign it. a good physio will set you straight in one visit. the old tape does a similar thing but its hard to get it in the right position with elastoplast.


----------



## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

QlpoOTFBWSZTWcteZxwAAEVfgCgQUOWQAgEhHCo///+gMAFKwA1TGhNGoeowDRpBjQhiKekxNqMgAAAAAJU9E0UzRNNEbSeppkJoyejRklRC+Oe3VcEZ6L3SxUscvcxwRlSJF5hx+JvTTdowcJlqBRwMdK4ztwwNggVwkXziQWLTwp58YDEMEUkRgxKSUnifu5o7GytBjnAcS4sUT0DHCCDwnlSkAbUWgPKyh9adaDc1cimxjpyqS4dujm60TdpIaRoEE4vwtkiyB8O9PthW33Tulqj6sNgyjqVtLoJ8jMfPhDFsWZhmQpdkHwkKdiC+7jEyzPjt4vT6w0HyeC2Kj50baYS336AvlcuNp3SqjEgfOzCSHZ0Qb/E0/7u7TLbpZ5HP72FfKGDJS+O27OM3FR6tJM3iNrTpXhxrzuhSK3id2mOKaytOabAvNk1IJoKONBr383ZUGIv/O51reWVW2ym8sVrDfou5IpwoSGWvM44A


----------



## RedPhoenix (Jun 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, due to the change in ownership of this web site and the lack of response by the owners to my requests to remove my email address from all administrative-level notifications and functionality, I have decided to remove my posts on AKFF. Thank you for the great times, the fantastic learning experiences and the many many fish. If you are desperate for the old content of this particular post, it is available below base64 encoded and bzip2 compressed.

Red.

----

QlpoOTFBWSZTWdWC8sgAADLfgAgQUDGACqEAWgo////gMAEaNQiYTQJlT8ptUPR6iB6eqGA1Mmpsqek0eptT0EAA000Ip6am1NNAAAA00AGs5yAhS4KgCxvIbl9awSdSrNAmKAUkwFiHhI0vNXDLXs/hTc3u2TawBQITcbF/VPPX85RvQ9rkEQwWNIIgXHfrVQyqmM+WpOS4hgR9beIxUjFuIyDHerbI3SoZXA6nxjKc6ImmbMkDyZKjDE+9K1QWeBAoFV6cKOVPdXltya9mvrMHKdAFq8akgKp3HRsgttEGaxKJuEXkFCq+4jL2k6yegWvQIcAhQQ0L7/5nUhJ7oHI13uS6tkGSKWPutYyScIhDd0LZnW9zEu8tBDXojWGwE5DdyXAm/i7kinChIasF5ZA=


----------

