# Anyone up for a bit of Green bashing...



## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

Looks like the Greens are getting a bashing as well as victorian councils cosying on up to them for preferances in the last election.

Whats at issue here is planning laws in Vic stopping people being able to clear trees around their property and thus sadly in the end we have seen some of these policy outcomes with the recent bushfires..... and what has happened to lives and property.

If you got to the Sydney Morning Herald online theres an excellent example on the front page of a chap who was fined heavily by the council for clearing his land around his house to form a fire break - according to the story his house was one of the few to survive the firestorm soley put down to his clearing efforts and staying to fight the fire...

There is a 'have your say' section there that you can sound off if you want about Green policies - maybe its time to turn the tide and put your thoughts to words on there. I know as I have..... 

http://www.smh.com.au/

http://blogs.smh.com.au/newsblog/archiv ... 21086.html

http://www.smh.com.au/national/fined-fo ... -85bd.html


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## Shufoy (May 28, 2008)

When i saw the title, i thought this was about boxing... :shock:


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Woppie i have just spent the morning on the water in my TK1 with my mate who lives in como and backs onto bush, he has been almost burned out twice now and he actually has the bush fire brigade trailer in his driveway , and he has his hands tied by the greens , because they wont let him clear behind his house as it will disturb the natural enviroment ,he knows thje fires will come again to his area , and my conbtention is he should be allowed to protect his property and not have a political party dictate to the local government.


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## Garfish (Jun 2, 2006)

I'm all for well thought out debate, unfortunately some of what I'm reading on these comment boards are ewild accusations made to score cheap political points... it's not the time for it.

The Royal Commission will no doubt throw up a range of issues - re: planning laws, native vegetation clearing overlays etc.

I don't think any one political party is to blame.


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## diabolical (Mar 30, 2008)

I never think of the greens unless I'm poisoning trees, building dams or shooting kangaroos. They don't annoy me quite as much as PETA do when it comes time to mules lambs. :twisted: :twisted: ;-)


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## Garfish (Jun 2, 2006)

> a bunch of pot smoking bacckie chewing bong heads that wouldnt get out of bed to help fight a fire or help their fellow man


A few sweeping generalisations there Bazzoo...

On the contrary, I think you would find most green minded individuals are quite active in their local community.

Native vegetation clearing requirements are enshrined in state legislation...

It's the green minded individuals that are poisoning the willows along streams to ensure that there's still a river bank left and some water flowing for trout and bass to swim in... they're hardly evil.

While it may be poorly thought through legislation that's the problem, it doesn't justify a free kick at the green crowd.


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

i was talking to a local here that posts on the ausfish forum.....he says its unbelievable how so many fishermen have been brainwashed by the green movement to the point they find themselves defending green policy that restricts their fishing rights.......

guess i gotta agree with him.

it only takes a little bit of research to find out what REALLY is behind the green movement.....

.


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

Part of my job when i worked for kosioszco national park during the 90s was to clear fire trails on the nsw and victorian border ......

the condition of the nsw trails WAS VERY GOOD ,mostly clear of obsticles and greenery .......

the victorian fire trails WERE DISCRACEFULL in fact acsess on some were so bad they were impossable to use ,[ and we use to drive okas ,aussie built 4wd army type trucks ] fallen trees and the undergroath so thick that the track would simply vanish .......

the national parks STOPPED doing control burnning stateing that they wanted to leave the bush in its natural state .the conserquence however is that neibouring properties and thredbo have nearly been distroid by bush fires twice in the last 10 years .

DISCUSTING BEHAVIOUR these greeny types MUST BE MADE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THERE ACTIONS .

craig


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

noeskimo said:


> i was talking to a local here that posts on the ausfish forum.....he says its unbelievable how so many fishermen have been brainwashed by the green movement to the point they find themselves defending green policy that restricts their fishing rights.......
> 
> guess i gotta agree with him.
> 
> ...


well said

its funny when we use to fight fires down the snow it was mostly made up from farmers and town folk NOT parks people .

in fact the farmers use to rescent going into the park to fight a fire because the parks basically did nothing in the way of backburning and in so it was actually a VERY VERY dangerous place to fight fires .

craig


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm a firm believer that people should be allowed to do just about anything they want to their own property, so I can see the point of those who frown upon any action by any council or government body that has prevented land owners to clear vegetation for fire proofing reasons (or any other reason for that matter). That said, I'm with Garfish on this one. For some reason, humans just have to find someone to blame, someone to point the finger at and say 'your fault' (I'm guilty of it to). As much as I distrust and - in some cases - detest government and their opposition, trying to lay sole blame on them for incidents like this is really just neglecting the various other factors involved. There are many and some of them probably haven't even become evident yet.

I'm not saying there isn't a good point being raised here but either way, I agree that now is not the time for blame. Let all the facts emerge first. In due course a lot of people/orgs will have a lot of 'splainin to do.


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

I think its important as I stated in myrant in the SMH that we should co exist with nature - but really not let nature always have precedent over people..... I think by nature fishermen are environementalists.... and I think its the green extremists we have to concern our selves with - which in my eyes is when common sense is thrown out of the window - which it seems was what heppened when people are being taken to court for clearing a safety zone around their property. Surely if people are going to live in the bush they should have the right to clear a fire break around themselves.... and if they are not then surely that land should not be available to build on.........

Australia is a bloody big country with a tiny population - but getting bigger ! We have a great opportunity and challenge ahead as a country to try and grow and maintain our existense in a very dry and arid place. I hope we are smart enough as a nation to be able to expand and still maintain a rich and varied environment without us being locked out or forced into bad situations such as the back burning debate....... It is hard to maintain a balance - fingers crossed we'll get there in the end :lol:


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## dru (Dec 13, 2008)

Garfish said:


> > a bunch of pot smoking bacckie chewing bong heads that wouldnt get out of bed to help fight a fire or help their fellow man
> 
> 
> A few sweeping generalisations there Bazzoo...
> ...


I have some hippy-greenie friends who are much into local issues in an area of coastal northern NSW. Much to my amuzement, they now make statements very much like Bazzoo. Some long haired hippy types I know totally agree. Me, I think they should be listened to, along with all of us. They have a legitimate view. But it isnt the only answer.

Here's my beef, based on when I used to 4Wd anywhere within 2 days drive from Sydney. First due to green (no, I dont think it unfair to generalise here) politically correct issues, the pasturists (is that right? what I mean is the 3, 4, 5 generation families farming the land but only with 99 year leases) were removed. NSW forests and Fed Parks didnt have the funds to manage the extra land, so coped by baricading the 4wd tracks. Then the land was swamped by feral plant pests. Give those farmers their due, at lest they managed the land. End of the day:
1 greenies not happy - the land has gone to shyte
2 families livelihood killed
3 local communities die-ing
4 no access for recreation (unless yo have time for a couple of months walk journey)

No-one wins.

What we needed is logical and rational management with the resources to fit. I would have been happy to loose access if it meant wilderness zones and proper protection and management. Some rationale behind my lack of access. Then I would have actively helped stop people who broke through the barriers. What we got was a politician saying "look at my green credentials".

Happening again with fishing?

Dru


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

Garfish said:


> > a bunch of pot smoking bacckie chewing bong heads that wouldnt get out of bed to help fight a fire or help their fellow man
> 
> 
> A few sweeping generalisations there Bazzoo...
> ...


Garfish , i have edited my post and withdrawn the sweeping generalisations , if i have offended you i apologise , but what i neglected to do was put the laughing smilies behind that statement as i thought anyone would have picked up the tounge in cheek with the Bacckie chewing part of the sentance , never mind , we are not on here to offend any one so i withdrew that sentance as i am a non political animal


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

[ as i am a non political animal   [/quote]

No your not Bazzoooooooo -but would we say your a sexual animal - in fact sexgod !!!!


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## HAWKEYE3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Gidday,

In Qld the workplace health and Safety Act can override the Environmental Protection Act but most people are reluctant to use it eg Councils, Road Authorities. Your friend may want to look at possibly using this act to achieve the required end. I would suggest also that he tests the water with the ombudsman first as it shouldn't cost him anything at this level.

Regards

Hawkeye3


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## crazyratwoman (Feb 26, 2007)

Shufoy said:


> When i saw the title, i thought this was about boxing... :shock:


id be in if it was mundine


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## sailhand (Oct 25, 2008)

for what its worth our political masters abide by the motto "if you dont do anything you cant be blamed for any stuff ups" this basic premise for all politicians is adhered to wherever possible. if for some reason you need to actually do something in order to appear to actually be useful then you target minority groups ( no teeth ) or start the media frenzy ( read public hysteria ) which invariably leads to royal commisions, senate enquiries, advisory councils, steering committees, consultants, departmental reccomendations etc etc etc etc etc etc ( please feel free to add to the list) essentialy any means by which large sums of money may be spent to avoid personal responsibility for any of these decisions. essentialy the buck stops with no one and the taxpayer spends considerable amounts of money on nothing.
a few noteworthy cases, cubby station on the darling river in queensland where they grow one of the most water intensive crops in the world in the middle of the most arid continent in the world , cotton(obviously the perfect place for it), has water storage facilities that rival or possibly exceed the capacity of sydney harbour whilst the government waffles about 10 billion dollar murray darling rescue packages. I reckon its pretty simple just close cubby station or even better charge them the same price for water as everybody else in the country and the crop would no longer be viable (end of cubby station, murray darling gets its occasional floods again, environment happier, no commisions enquiries etc etc I am willing to sell this suggestion to uncle kev at the remarkable price of one off mates rate 90% off sale price of 1 billion a huge saving to all you hardworking taxpayers out there). whilst in that state (just happens to be where I live and therefore easier to bash the local polly trash) queensland has a particular talent for disposing of the annoying taxpayers funds which must be frittered away in order to recieve a substantially larger amount in the next financial year ( the qld pollies have accumulated the largest fleet of guvvy cars in the country). in the recent dr death scam it was revealed by the royal commision/senate enquiry/whos catering the nibblies neverending nosh up excuse for a party, that 80% yep you read it right 80% of the queensland department of healths budget was spent on administration does this mean that for every nurse in a ward there is four yep four people on a similar salary watching them. for every hospital there is four yep four equivalent buildings housing the people that watch the nurses and the doctors and the wardsmen etc etc etc and for every x ray machine life support system etc there is some really superb desks and chairs(gotta be good Quality they get a workout). as ridiculous as this sounds it is true. the greens have an agenda of doing nothing or as little as possible to the environment which perfectly aligns itself with our wonderful federal, state and local goverments agenda. I dont think its the greens that are holey and soley the problem. in defense of the government though it is the greens political agenda that is responsible in part for the destruction of the very forests that they are supposedly protecting. a forest that for 40,000 years or more has been burnt annually and the resultant low intensity/temperature burnoffs do not kill the majority of the flora and fauna, not to mention the poor bastards that built their houses there, and indeed propagate and germinate new growth within these areas, ok so two or three possums get roasted, but that just means the other animals get a cooked feed for a change, food for thought!! ( is this the longest post in akff history , if not I may bring the soapbox out again on request to take out the record, be the only one I ever get, cant catch any fish)


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## varp (Sep 12, 2005)

I just had a rant in the Vic Fires thread about this and will happily fess up to having voted green since the party first appeared. I do this because it has been the only way to voice my concern about the impending AGW climate storm we are facing that makes all the other political dramas look like mild mid day soapies.

....but..... Greenies shit me to tears when they fail to grasp the bigger picture. The ecology has changed. People moved in and changed it utterly. We got to work from that fact. Say what you want about the nature of that change - I go long with the paved paradise and put up a parking lot line, but it is within our power to do something better than what we have now.

Thinking that letting the bush go and letting it look after itself constitutes a plan is asking for trouble. Look at the Vic fires for an example of how that failed. Stewardship has to be taken seriously and we are capable of doing that. Seeking to preserve an old ecology in the face of a dynamically different one is stupid.

We need to start gardening on a grand scale.


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## yaker (Aug 29, 2005)

Talking to my boss on Monday morning, he had just come back from spending the weekend at his parents' place near Narre Warren. Spent most the weekend fighting spot fires around the neighbouring properties. He told me the CFA were outside the fence but unable to enter the property 'cause some braindead politicians had passed a law, that to protect them from public liability issues, they could only enter properties to protect lives or assets. Hopefully the proposed Royal Commission will result in some common sense decisions.


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## nathans1 (Feb 11, 2009)

hi there im from beechworth and cant belive that the govement dont let us cut wood out of the scrub now look what hapons all we have done is feed a beast let us clear our propertys withing reason and get rid of the ground fule so its not as bad next time we can live of the land insted of dieing on it sorry just a bit pissed off


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## bazzoo (Oct 17, 2006)

nathan, no need to apologise champion , i think most of us agree with you and are sick of governments courting the minor parties to get their preferances , i would love to see an honest genuine politician arise in this country , wouldnt care which party but a politician who had the interest of the real Australia at heart that would face issues like water , climate change , bushfires , dams , railways and so it goes , i'm afraid i wont see that in my lifetime , and thats the shame of it , because we are the best country in the world


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

last night a bloke was interviewed on tele. he is a victorian who just went through the bushfire tragedy...

some months ago he illegally cleared the trees from around his home, as he feared fire. he was fined $100,000 bucks by the green inspired laws.....which the poor bugger paid.

however, his was one of the few homes in his area left intact after the fires went through...

the greens would rather the trees were still there...and he wasnt. that shows you the mentality of these 'people....'

.


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## Garfish (Jun 2, 2006)

> its funny when we use to fight fires down the snow it was mostly made up from farmers and town folk NOT parks people .


There's currently over 3,000 Project Fire Fighters (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 23,00.html) engaged by DSE fighting fires on public land, CFA on private land. The Emergency Coordination Centre is working 24 hours and is staffed almost exclusively by parks/govt workers.

"In 2007-08, DSE, assisted by its Networked Emergency Organisation (NEO) partners, achieved a planned burning program of more than 156,000 hectares, the best result for more than a decade. The planned burning of forest undergrowth is by far the most powerful management tool available to manage ecosystem health and lessen impacts from bushfires."

DSE Annual Report 2008 (http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/DSE/dsencor.n ... AC002901AF)

Bazz - no offence taken mate... only get offended when someone uses my fishing tackle and catches something bigger than me :twisted: :lol:


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

most people have a love for the environment. love being amongst it, smelling it, looking at its visual beauty, and hearing its sounds..... and want to keep it protected from further harm....there is NOTHING EXCLUSIVE about that. greenies have no moral monopoly on a love for the environment!!!!!!! we all love it. yet they are the ones with the biggest voices, and the most political clout...and we give it to them, mostly through ignorance..we elect a bunch of city born, cafe latte, pot smoking uni types, that have no real understanding of environmental pragmatism..

as a political party, the greens are a stand alone party for environmental moral concience. ie; they have no political opposition for green votes. THAT is their only monopoly.

so when election time comes, the informed and the illinformed vote for the greens, as a moral vote for the environment. how many actually know, or bother to read the greens policy is anyones guess. mine guess is, NOT MANY......

when someone says the greenies saved the sharks, or whales, or brumbies (sorry they murdered them..) it wasnt the green party. it was the publics moral green concience. yet the geeen party subconciously gets the credit. ie; "the greenies done it.."......when they didnt.

the green party are a mob of fanatics some of whose policies would be unpalatable to many people if they bothered to read them....again, people vote for the greens through moral concience, not through a well thought out political decision. people give them power thinking that they will follow some universal moral guideline...but they dont. they have their own agenda.

there needs to be another green party, to fracture the morality vote that the greens get. a green party that is pragmatic, open, and with a real, sustainable, environmental agenda.

.


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

i think these greenie types should be made accountable for there actions and face criminal charges because of the dicision they have made that has obviously contributed greatly to this devistating disarster .

through thhe book at them ......

thinking that you are doing the right thing is NO EXCUSE ....... HITLER thought he was doing the right thing ...

craig


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

craig51063 said:


> i think these greenie types should be made accountable for there actions and face criminal charges because of the dicision they have made that has obviously contributed greatly to this devistating disarster .
> 
> through thhe book at them ......
> 
> ...


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## Astro (Nov 27, 2006)

occy i tend to agree with your points and appreciate the sensitive way you conveyed your message...

it's not like bush fires are anything new, i hope the RC will identify the issues and that people take heed and be proactive in preventing this terrible occurrence to ever happen again....


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

> The people who live there know the risks better than anyone, and it is the councils, government authorities, and dare I say it (again I apologise if this seems insensitive), the land owners who are responsible for what goes on in these areas, including hazard reduction.


you are right. people on the ground, the ones who live there, and the ones who were before.....the aboriginies, understand. however, THEY HAVE NO VOICE IN POLICY.....

its the city born, uni educated, national parks geniuses that help mould the idiocy of bushfire 'prevention'.......that has murdered hundreds of people.

we continually see ever worse bushfires. why? because of the fools that make the laws, and those that advise the lawmakers. when was an aboriginal elder or a stockman asked for his advice?

do you realise the difference in burnoffs during the dry or wet or winter occy? tell me. i'll bet you dont. its common knowledge in the bush......


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

aawwwww, c'mon krayley.....its a bit of green bashing. there aint no way of doin it nicely.... 8)

.


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## Garfish (Jun 2, 2006)

Extremely well written Occy... thanks for your thoughts on the issue.


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

> This ridiculous greenie conspiracy theory about hazard reduction


yep. mainstream dogma. it can always be identified when they try and brand you some sort of loonie for having a differing opinion........

why are opposing views regarded as conspiracy theories? could it just be that the green advised np are going about it the wrong way? lets hope the royal commission looks for some answers in the RIGHT places.....and gives the universities a wide berth. theve been wrong so far....

.


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

maybe we could introduce the death penalty for arson.
A lot of these fires seem to be lit. Or are we now saying that arsonists are Greenies ?

i see green as a way of life, not a political movement and i am constantly surprised by the confused green bashing that goes on on this forum.
If it wasn't for environmentalists and people that strive to protect our planet we wouldn't have what we have now and we certainly wouldn't be catching any fish. There are activists in all walks of life and you can't just condemn ways of thinking because of a few rebels who need a cause, unless you are american of course 

maybe find a more accurate way of identifying your target.

i consider myself to be green because i care about the environment, vet what i buy, recycle, try not to waste resources, promote renewable resources etc etc.
does this all make me an evil green person ?


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

No Kerry your not an evil green person :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: your an environmentalist - which I think most of us are on here - my point is about EXTREME GREEN .......... :shock: :shock:


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

keza said..


> i consider myself to be green because i care about the environment


i care about the environment and i have contempt for the green party....

like i said. greens have no monopoly on caring and loving the environment...they just think they do...

the monopoly they do have is political power......

.


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

sorry occy with all due respect i agree and disagree but mostly agree .

a lot of fuel was on the ground and was not burnt off because of green laws and the nps- funding .this has already been confermed by various authorities and by land owners who lost property .i have seen this first hand and lived in such a sanario for 10 years .

i mean the abouriganies [ sorry about the spelling ,i blame my 70s education :lol: ] would do hazzard reduction burns when the area needed it .

also someone was finned $100,000 for trying to make his house safer from the bush fires .green laws .i think this guy at the very least deserves his money back .i mean you cant do hazard reduction if the laws state that it is illeagal to do so .

i welcome the inquest into why this happend or how this happened as maybee the people with authority will be made acountable and finnally stand up and listen .you would think that after the fires of ash wedensday and the tragic loss of life there that the authorities would get it somehow right 
ie hazzard reduction burns , better house design ,better communication and warning systems in place [ say that the fire moved to quick is a poor excuse ]evacuation procedures , standard fire breaks around houses ,gutter defence , fire bunkers,stay or go in laws .

surely the authorities new how dry the conditions were , how much fuel was on the ground , how strong the winds were going to be , how much the fire storm would create its own winds, how hot it had been leading up to the tragic day ,how much eucliptes oil was in the air .

i mean we were told a week before that temperatures on the weekend were going to hit the 40s 4 or 5 days before .

but no ... complacency seems to be the order of the day .

i would think that the authorities would learn from past mistakes .

i am NOT blamming the fireries and emergency services here they ARE heros , i blame the government and there lack of inaction .

greenies is such a broad disciption . i class myself as a greeny as i care about the enviroment and water ways as i know we all do .

anyway still one of the saddest days in australian history and no amount of finger pointing is going to change that .

craig


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

OK, (putting my mod hat on for a second) another quick remninder that everyone is entitled to THEIR own opinions on AKFF, however once things start getting nasty, personal or people start trying to ram THEIR points of view down OTHERS throats, then that's when the big bad mods will lock the topic down.

Unfortunately topics like this always generate some pretty intense feelings, so all we ask is that everyone plays nice..

Thanks. 8)


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

Davey G said:


> Unfortunately topics like this always generate some pretty intense feelings, so all we ask is that everyone plays nice..
> 
> Thanks. 8)


Davey i love you

sorry couldn't help myself, i think it's the hat :lol:


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## Davey G (Jan 15, 2006)

keza said:


> Davey G said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately topics like this always generate some pretty intense feelings, so all we ask is that everyone plays nice..
> ...


I love you too Keza. But if you get too amorous and try to ram anything down my throat I'll have to rethink my opinion :shock:

Ps My hats off now... 8)


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## Garfish (Jun 2, 2006)

In Victoria, Brumby was in the media from Thursday night onwards warning residents of conditions that rivalled those of ash wednesday. The emergency coordination centre was ramped up to 24 hours from Thursday onwards in preparation (perhaps earlier).

http://www.theage.com.au/national/worst ... -7yzk.html


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## koich (Jul 25, 2007)

+1 for Occy

Also, it's not Greenies/Conservationists that are the problem here, not the legitimate ones anyway. The "city born, uni educated, national parks geniuses " are actually educated enough to know that Eucalyptus trees(in fact most native plants) contain explosive oil that combined with fire enables them to germinate their seeds and regenerate the bush. It's pretty early on the Botany units of all the degrees you need to work as Ranger (even Aboriginal Rangers who don't go to uni and get on the job training, yes training, it's not hereditry Craig)

The problem lies with the uneducated bong smokers forming a mass protest and rich bandwagon riders who have jumped on the cause as a social status. It's the latter of these that exert power at policy level through such fraudulent entities such as the NPA. High society dinners are where the political backings are bought these days.

You also realise that this fire, and in fact most large bushfires that have occured in this country, spread *through the canopy* back by strong winds. No amount of hazard reduction burning can stop a fire spreading that way.

noeskimo: There are a million opportunies for Aboriginals to get involved in policy making these days (even the city born, uni educated ones, I hear they are especially welcome), in fact the local groups are generally consulted in regards to all policy within National Parks. Stockmen don't get much of a look in though.


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

yes its the oil that make the blue mountains blue....

stockmen and aboriginies will tell you that the best time to burn is when its hot....(but conditions suit) so that the mid level fuel gets burned up as well....not when its wet or cold as only the smaller stuff goes up.

.


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## koich (Jul 25, 2007)

noeskimo said:


> yes its the oil that make the blue mountains blue....
> 
> stockmen and aboriginies will tell you that the best time to burn is when its hot....(but conditions suit) so that the mid level fuel gets burned up as well....not when its wet or cold as only the smaller stuff goes up.
> 
> .


They do the hazard reduction burns in my surrounding area in Spring and Summer. I was under the assumption that all states were like that.


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

there are fire bans everywhere ive seen in summer....

.


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## koich (Jul 25, 2007)

When I left in a mid-Jan we still hadn't had a fire ban since last summer. Moot point really as firies are exempt from them for the purpose of hazard reduction, in fact we had a burn off in early December in the bushland next to my work.

Yes,I understand how a fire ban effects farmers and their ability to clear land, however I don't believe that just because someone owns the property means they are capable of effectively burning. It could however be a good opportunity for RFS brigades to blood their junior members and give them a bit of experience.


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

koich 
aboriginies on the job trainining its not heredirty

i dont remember saying it was heredirty what i was trying to say was they have been here for over 30,000 years and they new the value of lighting fires to clear out ground fuel and various other reasons .

i also relise that most large fires operate on a canopy level BUT to get to that stage the ground fuel must burn fiecely first to get the canopy started, also that ember attack is also the forest floor fuel burning and getting sucked up and out spreading the fire .

ive been involed in plenty of large bush fires that were on the ground and NOT in the canopy .sure the canopy burned but it burned from the ground up and not from canopy to canopy .

and im pretty sure that new bush fireries are trained up [ blooded] on fuel reduction fires on properties and crown land . at least they use to be .

i also know of properties down the snowy that backed on to the NP and they would do fuel reduction burnoffs on there land and recented the FACT that the NPs didnt, so when there was a fire that aproached there property from the NP it was usually approaching with more fury than was nesecairy .

craig


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

im sorry BUT i was listening to the radio again and they were intervewing 3 bush fire experts from the melbourne uni .

these guys were asked by the government after ash wedenday to investigate and make recomendations on bushfire safety .

in there words most if not all the recomendations they sugested were ignored by both councils and the government , things like building new houses away from the bush and NOT in amoungst it , NOT to make new houses plant out around the house ie shrubs and trees , cleared fire breaks AROUND new houses ,all new houses to have bush fire bunkers , more vigalent fire management system& better warnings systems

im sorry ,i know some of you people do not agree but these people MUST be made acountable for there inaction and SHOULD be made to face the full force of the law for there obvious disreegard for human life .

if this does not happen it will only be a matter of time when these arthorities will become complacent again .

and it happens again .

i know im harping on but it makes me so angry .

craig


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## johnny (Aug 12, 2007)

...and I don't like greens social experimentation policies..are they just labor leftist stooges?,,,,grrrr


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## Wrassemagnet (Oct 17, 2007)

johnny said:


> ...and I don't like greens social experimentation policies..are they just labor leftist stooges?,,,,grrrr


hmmm there are a few sorts of greenies aren't there (nothing is simple really)

First greenies i ever remember were the boogers PICKED and STUCK under the desk at school and I thought they were cool.

Second greenies i remember had chains on them and the trees they lived in and I thought they were brave and funny.

3rd greenies i learned about in German lessons when they became a political force in Germany and I couldn't understand why the teacher wouldn't just teach us the language and leave the boring stuff out.

Then i grew up a bit and realised how precious and fragile life / health / environment / relationships / people are and also realised how much i love nature and want all kids to grow straight and healthy and unadulterated I decided to do my best with my adult life to help kids do just that. Over the next many years I realised that knowledge was power, questions were very healthy, there was always more than one way to look at something, words needed to be used with care. I also eventually realised why my German teacher taught us the boring stuff about history, culture and responsibilities as well as rights as citizens. I started listening to parliament on ABC newsradio so i could get unadulterated and straight data to form opinions with rather than the flavoured stuff peddled by the editors and bloggers.

Well with the grey hairs came some grey into the black and white of right and wrong. i realised people are mostly just trying to look after their own immediate environment coz life is tough. Some people have more strength and/or more leisure and also like to look after other peoples environment for them too. Some people want to force everyone to look after their environment the way they are sure it should be and wont listen to reasonable exceptions to their own rules - they don't recognise the existence of the grey zone. Most people though, even if they don't see grey only black and white, like to be liked and are mates if you let them be. People have good intentions mostly. When people make mistakes it is usually because they are a bit lazy or misguided, not evil per se.

Then I realised something which related disturbingly well to the first greenies i ever remember - the latest GREENS (note the extreme black and white capitals please, no offence to my fellow nature-and-people lovers) have been PICKED by heaps of nice hearted genuine well meaning precious respect-worthy fellow people and STUCK on top of the seats in the senate and when I look under their chairs i see they have frilly red undies on. I don't think they are as cool as my original greenies, in fact i think they are scary.

I hope the Australian way prevails in the end - calling a spade a spade, sticking together, laughing at anyone who takes themselves too seriously, and playing the ball not the man. When something bad happens, we need to find out what went wrong and how we can make it better next time, knowing full well that on this planet nothing will ever be perfect (especially with people) and that nature especially is apolitical, knows no mercy and means no evil. It just is.

My 2 cents? People suspected of Arson need to be watched during high risk periods and proven Arsonists locked up. Common sense about land clearing, building materials, fire bunkers, evacuation plans, needs to prevail. People with experience and knowledge need to be respected, people with opinions need to be heard, people who are fanatics need sedation. Energy efficiency, pollution reduction, resource management, true social justice and a fair return for risk are not mutually exclusive and in the end are just good housekeeping. Big big national debts are bad - at the beginning the bait tastes yummy until the circle hook turns slowly slowly and lodges in the jaw hinge ... the little fish caught by debt go in the mincer, the medium fish on the barbie and the big fish just bust off the line...


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## varp (Sep 12, 2005)

A most excellent read Jim and I dips me lid.   

I would have thought we were all sensible types now and the age of glib name calling was all behind us, but as you can see from the bulk of the comments here that aint neccessarily so. Some people can only see the world in black and white and they define themselves by opposition ....It is still possible to be called a pinko neo-conservative Stalinist greenie that's to the right of Genghis Khan rather than come at an issue from a rationalist perspective.

Just part of the many varied ways the diversity of human hard wiring manifests I suppose. Tub thumpers are a monumental bore.

...thanks Jim


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

Very well said Jim.


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

Wrassemagnetwisdom - he shay......... :mrgreen:


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## craig51063 (May 30, 2008)

very good jim

But what do u do with governments and councils who do NOTHING with the information . 
I know governments and counils in this case arent evil BUT surely when they are given information on how best to mannage a emergency situation and have years and years to implement and put in place such procedures and do absolutly NOTHING exept ignore such advice. these peoples must be made acountable for there actions . 
sure there going to defend themselves in good time telling the commisioner oh we didnt have the money , we didnt have the time , we wernt ever expecting such big fires oh we tried to warn the people but it is up to the people to leave we cant make them leave ....... RUBBISH there is NO excuse they can give in my eyes that can justify there actions in this case .
we put these people in government to look after us not to blindly have a disregard for the populations safety .
if these peoples arnt made acountable then were do we go from there . do we let them simply say oh what we will do is commision the uni,s to give us the best advice and when we gt that advice in a few years we will implement there findings ............

they did this already after the ash wedensday fires . and what was done ????

im not haveing a go at you as i agree with you points but as i said if nothing is done about the way this was handled by the governments and councils concerned then it IS only a matter of time before this happenns again and we all have the same discussion saying the same stuff .

and know theres talk that some of the fires were started from poorly kept electrical wires...... whos responserbilaty are those .

slapping them on the hand and saying pull your finger out is not going to do anything as i said before they must face criminal charges . it was They who did nothing over the years ,it was they who are responsable for such a horific loss off life and property .

craig


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## Wrassemagnet (Oct 17, 2007)

hey Craig,

we are responsible for who we vote in to govern us. if they don't do a good job, we are partly responsible and they are partly responsible. if we vote in someone else next time and they do a better job that's good and both the old governors and ourselves have been held accountable. If there is criminality the law should (but doesn't always) have a say. At least there are mechanisms in place to get at the truth as far as humanly possible - royal commissions, coroners investigations etc. I think when something goes bad with government and it is a democratically elected one in a free country like ours the voters are partly to blame. Different if we were in Zimbabwe under dictatorship and didn't have a say about water sanitation and cholera broke out...

your points are good and useful and I hope note is being taken by the people governing us as their collective a*ses are on the line. But does fear of being made accountable for mistakes work to prevent disasters like this? I personally don't know what to do about the human condition - how to get us (including me first) to take responsibility, do a good job every single time, never overlook something, truly listen when advice is given, be compassionate, not be self serving etc etc etc. You can't legislate goodness in people no matter how responsible their positions in society are. you can however influence those who are within your sphere of influence and no-one more so than your own family, friends and kids. This is where those of us who give a crap can have the most bang out of our buck in the long run. Let's have our kids grow straight and they will become the straightish (no-one's perfect) governers of their future. Let's protect their brains and hearts from rubbish, violence, selfishness, vanity, materialism, extremism and above all FEAR which breeds most of the negative stuff in this world. Our tv got thrown out the window one night about 5 years ago...ahhh, that's a fond memory indeed.

One thing seems to be definitely happening : there is a lot of anger brewing now that the grieving process has begun, some justified, some just pain being expressed in distress. The last two smarta*se comments about all of this I want to make are: The heart is important and needs to be governed by the head. People should be passionate about things and rational about things. It's easy for me a thousand km away to be a bit dispassionate but even I feel angry and depressed about the situation - i can't imagine how I would be reacting if i had been directly affected...

cheers


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## varp (Sep 12, 2005)

I can tell you how I feel about it Jim - I'm as mad as {mod edited - Naughty Language} at these airhead hippie feral Afghan cap wearing sandal shod nuff nuff arty types that have so influenced local council and state government departments that you couldn't pick up a dead stick from the side of the road without copping a fine for debasing habitat.

...all the more enraging when you could see the inevitable outcome and have had all your protestations met with a roll of the eyes and that kind of world weary smug sigh that comes from a place that says - "we have the power here and you will obey..."

...makes you want to throw up.


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## Garfish (Jun 2, 2006)

I must say, some of these posts have been a real eye-opener for me...


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

OCCY wrote..


> but I believe the people who lived in these areas (be they greenies or not) bear some of the responsibility


really.....? those people werent even allowed to clear trees from their own land.......one bloke did and got a $100, 000 fine!!! he survived and some of his neibours didnt......WHOM ARE RESPONSIBLE? those that make the laws that prevent home owners and land holders from taking the nessesary steps to protect themselves. they are the responsible ones!!! the green whingers that stop people clearing fire hazzards from their living areas!!

YES it is the do-gooder-have-no-idea-greens who are responsible. let the blame fall at the feet of the guilty.....NOT THE VICTIMS.!!!!!!!!!

.


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## keza (Mar 6, 2007)

noeskimo said:


> OCCY wrote..
> 
> 
> > but I believe the people who lived in these areas (be they greenies or not) bear some of the responsibility
> ...


this is far more complicated than that and it can be looked at from so many different angles.
There have to be some areas that aren't suitable for people to build housing in because of fire risk and at the other extreme i don't think people would want to live there if an area was cleared and a treeless safe suburb was built.
I wonder how much area around a house would have to be cleared to save it from a fire with the intensity such as this one ? Probably enough that most people wouldn't want to live there any more.


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## noeskimo (Oct 20, 2008)

still doesnt excuse the thoughlesness of green groups responsible for lobbying gov and getting laws changed to take the responsibility away from people to protect themselves, by reducing fire hazzards...

it is at the very least, complicating matters by blaming the victims for not taking actions to defend themselves that are against the law!!!!!!

will the man fined 100k get his loot back....NO. because that would be an admission of guilt by gov and greens.....

.


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## paffoh (Aug 24, 2006)

Noeskimo,

Almost had enough of this...

This was a very tragic sad state of affairs (Bushfires) and more than one member of AKFF was directly affected by the fires, it is at this stage I ask you to stop pointing the finger so defensively and realise whats done is done. The only way we can move on is understanding (Which you so badly crave) but unless you listen to others points of view before shooting off I dont see why we should let you do the same. Forums are great debating tools but when people get offended and reports are made we will act on them appropriately and seek a time out relating to the subject matter (In this case very, very tragic).

Time will tell what evil harbours within our Governments relating to these issues but please for the sake of the forum, yourself and anyone related to the victims or the tragedy, please just chill the **** out in the meantime...


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## varp (Sep 12, 2005)

What galls me the most about this thread is how I find myself on the same side of the fence as noeskimo....shudder.... :lol:

...and I should reiterate that I am a card carrying member of the Wilderness Society and have voted Green since the party first appeared. I have done this mainly because I can see no other way to register my concern over man made climate change which is something that has bugged me since the late seventies and I have always had an above average interest in eco issues and if I want to slag an element in the green movement I reckon I can...more than noeskimo has the right to cos he would slag the whole movement anyhoo... :lol:

..and another thing...this is just a little forum in a big internet thingy and I reckon the mods should butt out. Getting a Big Brother vibe about the place and I don't like it. I rant and rave in real life and don't see why I shouldn't here. All good fun and I never take anything really seriously as I suspect lots of others do to. We're just blowing a bit of smoke - no pun intended...


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## varp (Sep 12, 2005)

No need for a denuded landscape either.

The intensity of the fires was due to an excessive fuel load. Local and state gov laws are to blame here.The landscape (and I am a landscaper) could easily tolerate a 50 to 70% reduction in flora without it affecting the fauna or the visual amenity. It would mean the difference between an intolerable inferno and a bit of bother.


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## varp (Sep 12, 2005)

> and don't have trolling be your only method of fishing for responses.


...whaaaa????

:?


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## varp (Sep 12, 2005)

whew...

8)


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## sitonit (Dec 29, 2006)

woft


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

In conclusion there are many hues of green - most it seems are a shade similar to each other - but then there is extreme green :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

It seems that most of us are not too keen on extreme green

But sadly there is only one party out there that supposedly speaks for all the differing hues of the same colour - which sadly misrepresents their hue for self serving results......

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## GregL (Jul 27, 2008)

Yeah man, put this puppy to bed.
I'm sure it'll be out to play again in the future, probably along with it's favorite buddy "Catch and release - right or wrong?".... :? ;-) 
Smeg eace:


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## wopfish (Dec 4, 2006)

GregL said:


> Yeah man, put this puppy to bed.
> I'm sure it'll be out to play again in the future, probably along with it's favorite buddy "Catch and release - right or wrong?".... :? ;-)
> Smeg eace:


Catch and release - did some one say catch and release - DONT GET ME STARTED !!!!! LET ME GET MY POPCORN AND BOXING GLOVES :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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