# Trolling in surf/rough conditions - BASIC PADDLING SKILLS



## kayakone

krustayshen said:


> Yeah yeah, this all looks like good fun but let's see them try it while trolling a hard body and flicking a soft plastic.






goanywhere said:


> I admire the skills of the guy in the video who does the "rock gardening" but I think to try to combine that with fishing would be foolhardy. Just think about it, you have to have rods, gear, lures hanging out somewhere, not to speak of how you could bring in a sizeable fish at the same time while trying to keep your yak under control. To advocate that to others, especially to newbies without bold warnings is in my opinion irresponsible.
> 
> Kayak fishing is potentially many times more dangerous than just paddling, so if anyone here is going to suggest activities or methods which add to the danger they had better be armed with solid evidence and detailed instructions. Not disputing anyone's claims but when anyone does make a claim like this I think it is not unreasonable to expect to be challenged to 'evidence up' or keep it to yourself.
> 
> Just my 2c.


I can understand how the misconception can arise, as I have not explained myself well, though there are members who have seen the system in operation. There is no soft plastic flicking. There is no rod. Almost the entire time is devoted to kayak control.

Beekeeper, who had the sense to not go out on one day when a 35 knot SE change was due to hit Redcliffe. He can affirm that I went out anyway in winds from 28 - 37 knots, and in big surf (for Redcliffe) hooked and landed a 77 cm Jew in mountainous seas, and was in complete control the entire time.

This type of fishing is not done with a rod. It is straight trolling with an HB or two. It is done with large lever drag Alvey Reels (650 BC lever drag, spooled with 40 or 50 lb Platypus Platinum mono), and bolted bolted directly to the deck, so you have both hands on the paddle at least 98 % of the time. By removing the rod, you are uncomplicating the entire process massively, *and* improving the safety by being in control of the kayak 98 % of the time.

I hope that in part reassures you I am not _completely_ mad. It is done on the background of thousands of hours of sea kayaking and whitewater, in a very stable sea kayak, and the method works. Fish will still hit a HB, regardless of how it is attached.



salticrak said:


> Trevor, you have taken on the mantle of ''safety guru'' here for some time now. Good for you. Your numerous efforts to point out the dangers of our sport are well documented on this forum.
> But when you start talking about kayak fishing in the surf zone or rock gardens I take exception to this. This is not some lighthearted banter.
> You not only allude to this but repeatedly go on about how you have done this. And I do believe you meant fishing from a kayak in the areas noted. You are putting ideas into peoples heads that may be just starting out on their kayak fishing journey. These ideas are foolish and I think may be the result of bravado and bluster on your part. Funny I never saw you around Boat Rock at Straddie. I doubt your kayak fishing experience and your ability to keep a kayak under control and land a fish in the wash or surf zone. There are blokes on here who fish around exposed rocks in the ocean on a regular basis. I think of the Coffs boys. But you?
> No way, so why don't you quit while you are ahead?


Paul your "unsafe" is another man's playground, but thank you for the recognition of my contribution to safety here. I am assured it has helped many people. Your denigration is unwarranted Salti. If I went on it was because I had thought of the problems of maintaining kayak control and still trolling in surf and rock gardens. I am not advocating trying this for 99 % of the members here. There are great dangers for conventional fishing (trolling methods). This is not conventional, but there are still dangers in the methods I have used for years. There was a time not too long ago where there was hardly a place I wouldn't go and use this method of trolling (I developed the system, was very fit and had a reasonable level of skills) and at times caught some pretty big fish.

Why are you so critical of that which you cannot see, nor that which you cannot conceive as a safe and successful method of fishing?

Why denigrate someone who claims to have done some adventurous kayaking and fishing? Does it make you feel more confident in yourself? 

I will search for some photos to explain the method, and_ maybe _ you will attach a little more credence than you are currently displaying.......maybe not. You might hopefully change your view of "really unsafe practices" and your statement that I advocated them. I did not advocate them. You might call Gary Forrest or Craig McSween to be 'unsafe in 35 knots.' You are simply wrong because you have no idea of their skills levels nor the seaworthiness of their craft.

In several places I have repeatedly listed the dangers of fishing in rock garden environments and the surf zone, and all that with' my system only'. How could you have missed those warnings? I will try to find a few photos.


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## krustayshen

kayakone said:


> I hope that in part reassures you I am not completely mad.


 



kayakone said:


> hooked and landed a 77 cm Jew in mountainous seas,


Hey Trev you will have to add this Jewie to your brag list, you have somehow left it out.


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## dru

Salti and K1

This thread should not be diverted into argument like this.

K1, would you recommend guys head to cave fishing on the back of these BASIC skills trainers? Your own skills, challenged by Salti or otherwise, this is sensible?

Salti, you dismiss some experienced and detailed trainers here. I have to admit that the whole "achieve level X before you are permitted to paddle with us on trip Y" thing simply switches me off.

But you being open and honest. Nothing for you in this thread? Nothing at all?

(I am taking your note of standing to call BS when I sniff it.)


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## kayakone

krustayshen said:


> kayakone said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope that in part reassures you I am not completely mad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kayakone said:
> 
> 
> 
> hooked and landed a 77 cm Jew in mountainous seas,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey Trev you will have to add this Jewie to your brag list, you have somehow left it out.
Click to expand...

That's the bigger two Greg, caught in glass and photographed by Sweed who got out of bed very late.. The one in big seas .....I doubt I even have a photo of it, though Jimbo did definitely see it. Even with my Alvey Reel system, I doubt either hand was off the paddle for more than two seconds, such were the seas. Big surf at Scarby!

At over 30 knots you have trouble holding on to a paddle with both hands, though the doubters such as Salti remain unconvinced.

On that same morning Gary Forrest took off north from the Sunny Coast with Stuart Truman in his round Australia circumnavigation, and reported winds to 38 knots and 6 metre swells. That, gentlemen, demands a high level of skills. (didn't catch any jew though - :lol: :lol: )


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## krustayshen

kayakone said:


> That's the bigger two Greg, caught in glass and photographed by Sweed who got out of bed very late.. The one in big seas .....I doubt I even have a photo of it, though Jimbo did definitely see it. Even with my Alvey Reel system, I doubt either hand was off the paddle for more than two seconds, such were the seas. Big surf at Scarby!


I note your quick update, have you left any other catches out ?


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## Zed

"I caught a 100 pound sturgeon on 20 pound test."
--Les Claypool
_Fish On_
PRIMUS


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## kayakone

krustayshen said:


> kayakone said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the bigger two Greg, caught in glass and photographed by Sweed who got out of bed very late.. The one in big seas .....I doubt I even have a photo of it, though Jimbo did definitely see it. Even with my Alvey Reel system, I doubt either hand was off the paddle for more than two seconds, such were the seas. Big surf at Scarby!
> 
> 
> 
> I note your quick update, have you left any other catches out ?
Click to expand...

Yes.

I am not here to convince the 'Saltis' of what I have done or where I have been or achieved. I will no longer answer the doubters. The sole aim is to achieve basic skills. The skills kevels that can be achieved by following the 'basic paddling skills' and beyond, are far, far above those of the average paddler, and open up inconceivable opportunities to improve your skills _and_ safety margins, I do not intend to interfere or destroy the good this thread has done for the average paddler.

Read the exercises, follow the videos, and practice the techniques. Forget fishing in the danger zones. If you like, employ a professional guide for and hour or two to help improve your safety, and try like almighty to come to the next Safety Day in the next few months.


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## kayakone

dru said:


> Salti and K1
> 
> This thread should not be diverted into argument like this.
> 
> K1, would you recommend guys head to cave fishing on the back of these BASIC skills trainers? Your own skills, challenged by Salti or otherwise, this is sensible?
> 
> Salti, you dismiss some experienced and detailed trainers here. I have to admit that the whole "achieve level X before you are permitted to paddle with us on trip Y" thing simply switches me off.
> 
> But you being open and honest. Nothing for you in this thread? Nothing at all?
> 
> (I am taking your note of you standing to call BS when I sniff it.)


I agree Dru, and correctly spotted. Salti has no idea of the skills that are attainable. His denigration of my claims is from lack of knowledge of the method used. I bear part of the blame, because I did not explain there were no rods involved, and simply because I should _never _have mentioned this type of fishing in *this* thread. For those who got something out of the thread (up to the claims by Salti of BS), please continue to practise the basic skills, and you will be a winner overall....big time! And do not forget the upcoming Safety Day # 4.

I hope the instructional videos have been of great benefit to many members.


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## krustayshen

Hey Trev, I found another omission from your brag list.



kayakone said:


> I have caught many yellowtail kingfish.


Just sayin


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## scater

This is getting unseemly and sad, pull your heads in the lot of you.


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## anselmo

Spilt from BASIC PADDLING SKILLS


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## anselmo

Yep. Whats your point? ;-)


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## anselmo

Links are there at both ends for anyone who is interested enough to follow them

None of the content has been censored or changed
It's all there, in all of its bare naked glory, for all to see


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## jbonez

Conditions are bad when you put your rods away with over 2km back to launch spot.


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## kayakone

Saved by Nick and separated as should have been done.

Re the trolling, it is possible with the methods I devised. Just ask Davey G about the ability to paddle side on, corner on, in moderate breaking waves. In helping Davey at the Noosa Surf Skills Day over a year ago, I did just that (no reels, no rods, just rod tubes), copping 300 waves from all angles, without one capsize.

With the Alvey Reels set-up I devised, both your hands are on the paddle 98% of the time, and safety/capsize risk is greatly minimized, because you are free to brace.

Despite Salti's assertions, there _are _fish in that zone, and around the rock gardens, but having lures deployed does increase the danger risk, although minimally, depending on conditions and paddler skills (cf with rods). I do not expect a great rush of Alvey Reel pimping, and despite my assertions, a reasonably high level of bracing skills is required to be hit side, front corner, back corner on repeatedly and to stay upright. I remember several 'floaters' thanking me for rescue in those rapidly worsening conditions


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## paulb

I'm interested in how you had your alvey set up? Or if others have used a technique of fixed reel straight to the fish.


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## kayakone

salticrak said:


> 50lbs mono with a bicycle inner tube or strong bungee.


Now it's my time to call BS. Leave it Salti. You have no idea.

PaulB. 
The Alvey Reel, a 650 BC lever drag, is bolted straight though a piece of alloy attached to a stainless steel hinge. It is attached to the kayak with a S/S 'R' clip.

The lines to the lure run through a fabricated bracket bolted into the back of the Alvey (graphite) and carrying a 40 mm S/S ring guide close to the kayak. They never interfere with paddle stokes. You run one deep and shallow, and one shallow and longer.

The high breaking strain mono absorbs the bangs of really big fish strikes, and fish landing control is achieved by occasional slight adjustment to the lever drag. Both hands are back on the paddle within a couple of seconds, as required. All kayak control strokes are possible most of the time, even in breaking surf, ensuring an upright kayak and an eventually landed fish.

The_ biggest _landed fish was a 20 kg Trevally no surf though - Great Keppels.

The _most_ landed was about 13 X 2 lb tailor in 20 minutes in breaking surf of about 3' of whitewater.

The _largest_ were about 3 - 5 tailor from 4 -6 lb in 15 minutes, again in breaking surf.

Other fish were Spanish, and spotted mackerel, bream, dart, even whiting, and flathead to 80 cm (some estuary), and sharks to 1.5 m. Some much bigger fish were hooked but generally cut off or sharked, as they were exceptionally large (one a 15 kg Mactuna), or we wanted nothing to do with them because of the size.

I'll try to find a few pics for you PaulB.

Cheers mate


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## Dodge

kayakone said:


> salticrak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 50lbs mono with a bicycle inner tube or strong bungee.
> 
> 
> 
> Now it's my time to call BS. Leave it Salti. You have no idea.
Click to expand...

When I first started yakking, saw a bloke at GC Seaway fishing the north wall in a small Minnow SIK with rod and plastics, went over to have a yarn to him.

Told me he had not been there long as he had been outside trolling Seaway to the bags using a rig similar to the one Salti mentions above.

After I expressed some doubt he got out the rig and showed it to me, was 40lb mono about 100m from memory, with a 6" minnow HB, and the rig attached to the yak via a sewer pipe rubber ring as a shocker, and used like a hand line.

Told me he slipped out for 45 minutes whenever conditions on the bar were OK, but that day it was flat, and fishless, but had caught a spaniard [of unknown size], as well as the odd tuna and many tailor previously.

Remarkable young feller who paddled over from Paradise Point, which was quite an achievement itself in such a small yak.


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## kayakone

salticrak said:


> Mac Tuna
> Size
> The Australian all-tackle game fishing record stands at 11.8 kilos, taken in Queensland back in 1973. The West Australian record is a bit smaller at 8.9 kilos taken off Exmouth in 1995 by Geoff Moyle.
> 
> More bullshit...


Maybe you got the old book, so you call BS again.

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets ... l-Tuna.pdf

Grant's Guide: " The mackeral tuna grows to a weight of 19 kg."


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## mattattaylorsbeach

I think when I get home tonight I'm going to make some popcorn, pour a bourbon and come back to this thread :lol:


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## Guest

cjbfisher said:


> salticrak said:
> 
> 
> 
> ayup.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul,
> Let it go.
> If you don't like it, just ignore it.
Click to expand...

Chris its entertaining. Give it a couple more days before you call a stop to it


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